Rachel Harrison

Introduction--Carol Mancusi-Ungaro, Rachel Harrison

Conservation Issues and Exhibition--Harrison assesses the current condition and installation of I'm with Stupid.

Subject(s):

Papier mâché;

Parex®;

Silicone;

Visual inspection;

Wigs;

Exhibiting;

Hats;

Headscarves;

Instructions (document genre);

Exhibition--Harrison and Mancusi-Ungaro review a set of instructions that the Harvard Art Museums employed in their installation of I'm with Stupid.

Subject(s):

Hats;

Installations (exhibitions);

Instructions (document genre);

Neckties;

Wigs;

Conservation Issues and Exhibition--Harrison expresses her opinions regarding securing elements of I'm with Stupid for exhibition. She and Mancusi-Ungaro continue to review the installation instructions.

Subject(s):

Exhibiting;

Installations (exhibitions);

Instructions (document genre);

Mannequins (costume equipment);

T-shirts;

Exhibition--Harrison expresses her preferences regarding the installation of I'm with Stupid.

Subject(s):

Height;

Installations (exhibitions);

Pedestals;

Sculpture in the round;

Viewers (observers);

Exhibition--Harrison continues to review the installation instructions for I'm with Stupid, explaining her choices regarding installation and exhibition of the work.

Subject(s):

Fading;

Mannequins (costume equipment);

Wigs;

Conservation Issues--Harrison assesses the current condition of I'm with Stupid.

Subject(s):

Visual inspection;

Technical Specifications--Harrison describes the materials and techniques that she used to create I'm with Stupid.

Subject(s):

Acrylic paint;

Binder (material);

Fugitive (pigment attribute);

Intensity (color property);

Paint layers;

Pigment;

Process of Creation and Technical Specifications--Harrison describes the circumstances that led her to create I'm with Stupid. She continues to discuss the materials and techniques that she used to create the work.

Subject(s):

Assemblages (sculpture);

Neckties;

Pedestals;

Plywood;

Conservation Issues--Harrison expresses her preferences regarding the immediate conservation of various elements in I'm with Stupid, in particular the wheels on the sculpture's base.

Conservation Issues--Harrison continues to express her opinions regarding the future conservation of various elements in I'm with Stupid, in particular the cans on the sculpture's base.

Subject(s):

Cans (containers);

Shipping;

Technical Specifications and Conservation Issues--Harrison describes the materials and techniques that she used in I'm with Stupid. Specifically, she discusses the types of cement and wood that she used. She also expresses her preferences regarding the work's future conservation.

Subject(s):

Acid;

Cleaning;

Paint;

Paint layers;

Parex®;

Portland cement;

Screws;

Technical Specifications and Conservation Issues--Harrison discusses the found elements that she incorporated into I'm with Stupid. She explains their symbolic meaning and expresses her opinions regarding their future conservation.

Subject(s):

Cracking;

Drying;

Found objects;

Mannequins (costume equipment);

Shoes (footwear);

Yellowing;

Conservation Issues--Harrison describes the rubber and plastic masks that she used in I'm with Stupid. She and Mancusi-Ungaro discuss the masks' unique conservation needs and options for conserving them.

Subject(s):

Cracking;

Disintegration;

Drying;

Feather (material);

Masks (costume);

Rubber (material);

Silicone;

Conservation Issues--Harrison and Mancusi-Ungaro review Harrison's opinions regarding the future conservation of the found object elements in I'm with Stupid.

Subject(s):

Masks (costume);

Natural aging;

Preservation (function);

Rubber (material);

Concept/Nature of Work and Conservation Issues--Harrison discusses the conceptual significance of various elements in I'm with Stupid and her opinions regarding their conservation.

Subject(s):

Cracking;

Decorative elements;

Disintegration;

Drying;

Preservation (function);

Synthetic;

Concept/Nature of Work and Conservation Issues--Harrison discusses the conceptual significance of various elements in I'm with Stupid and her opinions regarding their conservation.

Subject(s):

Beads (pierced objects);

Hats;

Tassel;

Velvet (fabric weave);

Concept/Nature of Work and Conservation Issues--Harrison discusses an area that she painted on I'm with Stupid. She also explains the origin of cracks in the cement on the work.

[Speakers (in order of appearance): Carol Mancusi-Ungaro, Founding Director, Artists Documentation Program, Founding Director, Center for the Technical Study of Modern Art, Harvard Art Museums; Rachel Harrison, Artist]
CM-U: I am here, Carol Mancusi-Ungaro—we're at the Fogg with Rachel Harrison, and we are looking at a piece that says, that its title is I'm with Stupid, 2007. Correct? Yes.
Rachel Harrison: Yes.

CM-U: Yes. I guess there are a lot of things we're going to talk about. We are going to talk about installation. It arrived in pieces, and so it was put together here.
Rachel Harrison: Um-hum.
CM-U: So I guess the first thing is, how does it look to you? And what strikes you?
Rachel Harrison: In terms of its installation?
CM-U: Yeah. Let's talk first in terms…
Rachel Harrison: Okay. There were just…
CM-U: Well, just talk about – yes, in terms of installation.
Rachel Harrison: Okay. Well, this is where I don't know until I do it, and you said, "Don't do it yet." So I don't – do you – this is a document, right?
CM-U: Oh yeah.
Rachel Harrison: All right. So at one point, this was like this (adjusts artificial grass). And it came out more.
CM-U: It should be coming out more?
Rachel Harrison: So I think that's how it should be.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. And I think that I didn't make the instructions, so we'll go over today the fact that…
CM-U: Yes.
Rachel Harrison: …it might not be instructed that it should be sticking out more. With a lot of things, there's always styling to be done; and so that's like a – that's a very personal, subjective thing. So I can't say. So that's one thing, would be that.
CM-U: That would be interesting, actually. Are you curious to know what it said in terms of – okay, go on.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. Do you want to go over the instructions?
CM-U: Why don't we do it as we go with things you notice. So why don't we start with this?
Rachel Harrison: Well, that was the main thing. I mean, this can also be that I don't know. It was in an exhibition before it was sent here…
CM-U: Oh.
Rachel Harrison: …and I wasn't – it was at a group show at Paula Cooper's, and I didn't take it down. I didn't pack it. And I didn't make the instructions. So – and, like I said, I didn't know it was happening.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: So I don't know, for example, if the scarf was like this because it was packed that way, or that at one point – oh, this is attached. Okay. At one point I put silicone here.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: You want me to just talk about what had been done?
CM-U: Yes.
Rachel Harrison: Okay.
CM-U: Yes.
Rachel Harrison: There's no order to this?
CM-U: No.
Rachel Harrison: Okay. Silicone has been put between the headscarf and this material, which is a cement mixed with Parex®…
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: …which we can get to later. Okay. So there's silicone between this, and this scarf, and then there's silicone between the scarf and this skull, which is a papier mâché skull made of brown paper that I purchased at Pearl Paint…
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: …during Halloween season. So that was attached, and so there could have been some slippage with the scarf. But it's – like I said, it's such a slight thing that I think that's fine.
CM-U: And is the skull attached to this body part?
Rachel Harrison: No.
CM-U: No. Okay.
Rachel Harrison: I mean, it couldn't be. Because I didn't drill through it.
CM-U: Yeah.
Rachel Harrison: You can touch it if you want.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: So, that's what I'm saying – it's going from here to the scarf, and then from the scarf to here; but it's not moving that much.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: This is not attached, so this gets placed. So maybe also you need a hairdresser because you need to sort of (arranges wig on sculpture)…
CM-U: (laughs)
Rachel Harrison: Seriously.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. You know, you need to sort of – that's what I'm saying. You need to do some styling, so, you know. So that, that's something over time that, I guess, pictures would indicate the right location. Right? That you don't want it to look too matted. So then you have the hair, and then you put the wig on it because there's also like a balance…
CM-U: So you don't – I'm sorry – you don't want it too matted? You want it to have this kind of free look. Is that what you're saying?
Rachel Harrison: Well, you know what – initially, it was more – this is the thing. Already it's changed over time, and I don't – like the Greek and Roman sculptures we were just talking about, I don't know if it needs to be returned to its original state.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: I think this position is important. I think this is fine as it is. I think when the wig was acquired, it was slightly less matted. And then the hat – I would say that the hat was fine, and it was just based on pictures. And I'd also say that this was exhibited twice, and both times it was arranged slightly differently. So I would say that the carrot goes one way and the hat goes another.
CM-U: Okay. That's __________ [phrase inaudible]…
Rachel Harrison: Something like that.
CM-U: …completely understood.
Rachel Harrison: So you have a balance. There is a balance issue, that if you put it too far that way, it goes that way; and if you put it too far this way, it goes this way. So I think it is going to have to be loose. I think there is no set position for that. And it was sent with photographs. Can I see…
CM-U: Yes. I think it would be interesting for you to see them.
Rachel Harrison: Okay.

CM-U: I think we'll just go over it.
Rachel Harrison: Okay.
CM-U: Okay?
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. I'll let you read 'cause I don't…
CM-U: Let me lean this way, where it says to (reading): "Set up five cans of food on the base to match the details. Placement does not have to be an exact. A rough approximation will suffice."
Rachel Harrison: Um-hum.
CM-U: We're going to talk a lot about the cans and the food and – later?
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. Because we have to empty them.
CM-U: Okay. Right. "Position the wooden sculpture on top of five cans, making sure that the sides of the sculpture match up with the appropriate paint [sounds like] marks on the dolly."
Rachel Harrison: Hmm.
CM-U: "Placement of wooden sculpture should be roughly centered on the dolly."
Rachel Harrison: Okay. I think that's accurate. Yeah.
CM-U: "Position the sculpture with the skull, green wig, and maroon hat on top of the wooden sculpture so that the left side of the skull matches the image below."
Rachel Harrison: Okay.
CM-U: "This element of the sculpture is extremely fragile. Please handle with care, as the skull is not securely attached."
Rachel Harrison: Okay. So we went over that.
CM-U: Um-hum. Position the baby mannequin beside the sculpture with skull so that the back of the mannequin is oriented in the same direction as the skull faces.
Rachel Harrison: Um-hum.
CM-U: The purple necktie should then go over the edge of the wooden sculpture as seen in the above image. And the image shows it coming down between the writing [sounds like].
Rachel Harrison: Okay.
CM-U: Okay?
Rachel Harrison: Oh, see, no, I've changed my mind, obviously. You can't tell.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: I'm ahead of you, but go on, yeah.
CM-U: "The attached leg of the baby mannequin wraps around the base of the sculpture with skull so that the shoe is positioned to match the image below. The detached leg is positioned in roughly the same orientation and is draped over the sculpture with the skull base as shown below."
Rachel Harrison: Okay.
CM-U: You're okay with that?
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. I mean, the thing is, it looks fine. So I guess somebody was able to interpret this to achieve this result.
CM-U: Right, interpret from what you've done.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: I mean, I guess that's something we talk about.

Rachel Harrison: Would you want to secure this? It feels secure. Oh, I guess they used silicone that I just ripped up. Was something placed here to secure it momentarily? I mean __________ [phrase inaudible]
CM-U: No, I don't think anything was added. Uh-uh.
Rachel Harrison: Okay. Do you think it would be better for the sculpture if these things were fixed? Or is this…
CM-U: I think we should leave that to depend upon the history of its exhibition here. If it went to a retrospective of yours…
Rachel Harrison: Right.
CM-U: …where it might be, you know, in a very crowded museum, maybe we would need to secure – how would you feel about it? Trying to secure or…
Rachel Harrison: I don't know yet.
CM-U: You don't know yet. Well…
Rachel Harrison: I've been told by other conservators it's better not to secure the pieces in case they break. I know you said that there's reversible ways of securing it. So – or that things that are reversible.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: So maybe I would move towards the direction of reversible ways of securing it.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: And I would…
CM-U: Temporary. Temporary.
Rachel Harrison: Temporary, yeah.
CM-U: Yeah. That would be what I would think, too.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. That makes sense to me.
CM-U: Right. And we can do that.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: There are ways that we can do that. Let me just read and make sure that there's nothing else that doesn't make sense to you. "Be sure the baby mannequin's T-shirt covers the end of the detached leg."
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. Do you know what that means over here? I can show you specifically. I don't know if you want this on.
CM-U: Yeah. I you should come around.
Rachel Harrison: This is actually something that's important. Every time it was installed it was different, but there – you don't want this to show. It's the dirty secret.
CM-U: (laughs)
Rachel Harrison: Okay? So you don't want that to show. And the position of the – there is flex – you want it to look as though this leg is attached, and it's all normal. And actually – can I see the picture for a second? Does it say anything about the position of the – because this is slightly different, but I don't think it's bad that this is not over more. Like – no, okay.
CM-U: No, it doesn't.
Rachel Harrison: All right. Because I don't know if you want…
CM-U: That's so __________ [phrase inaudible].
Rachel Harrison: Another way to install this would be that if this was up there, I think then you have less chance of having that show.
CM-U: So that the body __________ [phrase inaudible]…
Rachel Harrison: 'Cause the leg is not attached. So I don't it to – I don't want you to know that the leg is not attached. So I think the way it is, is fine. Does it say anything else about the T-shirt? No.
CM-U: That's it for the T-shirt. Well, in terms of condition, we haven't talked about it. 

CM-U: But that's it in terms of positioning.
Rachel Harrison: Right.
Rachel Harrison: See, now, if you were to ever put this on a pedestal, you wouldn't be able to see that eye. Right? I mean, in terms of those other things we were talking about? In terms of this being – I think it's important that this is at this height, and that it's on the floor. And that it shouldn't be raised. Because this [probably referring to mannequin's eye] is a very important detail. So if you were to have this…
CM-U: Yeah, yeah. Well the other things, so – okay, but not even raising it, if a barrier is put on the floor to keep people away…
Rachel Harrison: That would not be ideal either.
CM-U: Because you still couldn't get that one-on-one…
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: …angle that you're talking about.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. And I'm aware that not – like, children don't have the access to that. I'm aware that people of different heights may experience it differently, but the fact that a general public could see that eye at that height is important.
CM-U: Okay. That's important to know.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. So I'm anti-barrier for that.
CM-U: It's important, given – looking at the work, it's obviously important to be able to walk around it.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: So the installation would have to allow space around it. It couldn't be in a secured place.
Rachel Harrison: Absolutely. This could not be shown so there wasn't enough space for someone to walk all the way around it. And it is not important that this is the first view. It's equally successful if you were to encounter the sculpture from this side. This could be turned. If I was to install this gallery, I would – it would be possible I would have the side view or another view. This might not be the first view. So there's no – it doesn't have to be positioned in any specific way. But you must be able to access all four – if we say this has four sides…
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: All four sides of it equally. And I would probably prefer that there wasn't something that made it appear as though this is the front.
CM-U: Yeah.
Rachel Harrison: The way this is installed in the room now, it appears as though this is a front because it's addressing the door. Which is fine for this installation, but in the future, it wouldn't have to be that way.
CM-U: One could even say that it would be more – you are more encouraged to go around if it weren't that way, even.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: Yeah. I think which is what you're saying.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. Which would be – because this is also a face. So if you wanted to address the figure, you could say that this is also equally the front.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: Because there is a face there as well. And this is also a face because of the way the headscarf is, so it's a double head.
CM-U: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Rachel Harrison: So there's actually three. There's one – I'd say one, two, three on this side, and one, two, three on that side. Because this is two masks. And then a third face. So there's six sets of eyes here, but then there's only four sets of eyes there.

Rachel Harrison: Or that would be one way of looking at it.
CM-U: Let's talk about the grass.
Rachel Harrison: The which?
CM-U: The grass.
Rachel Harrison: Okay.
CM-U: It says, "Position fake grass bundle between baby mannequin's legs and the base of the sculpture with the skull so that the bundle sits comfortably in place with blades of grass allowed to rest where they may."
Rachel Harrison: Okay.
CM-U: But you feel that it needs to sort of come into the space beyond it [sounds like].
Rachel Harrison: Slightly. It shouldn't – I would say that the position begins higher than it was. Rather than touching the bottom, it's just slightly higher.
CM-U: Okay. Good. Good.
Rachel Harrison: It's a slight adjustment, but that it has a more forward – it's slightly more aggressive, I think.
CM-U: Yeah.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: I agree.
Rachel Harrison: Okay. It is more aggressive. Yeah. I mean, we're at Harvard here, so we can…
CM-U: Did you dye the hair, or was that the color of the wig?
Rachel Harrison: No. It came that way. So it's a multicolored wig.
CM-U: And I see that the greens are different in the color.
Rachel Harrison: It is. And it's possible that this is a wig that someone gave me, and it – no, it's streaked. But someone gave me a bunch of wigs that had come from a window, that had been damaged by light. But I don't know if this is one of them.
CM-U: It has that feel to me.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: 'Cause you see where it has this much bluer [sounds like]…
Rachel Harrison: It's from New York City. I think this is – I think it's from some place where I got three wigs from a window.
CM-U: It has…
Rachel Harrison: But it – doesn't it also look like it's dyed in the style when women streak their hair to look like tiger stripes?
CM-U: Uh…
Rachel Harrison: You know, blondes do that look?
CM-U: Yes. Yes.
Rachel Harrison: And that looks to me – it's in the – I thought that this was…
CM-U: Well, I see that here. But here I just see this kind of bluing of the green.
Rachel Harrison: Which could be from sun damage. Yeah.
CM-U: It's kind of great, though. I like it. __________ [phrase inaudible]
Rachel Harrison: Okay, now I'm upset that the bangs aren't as visible. That I changed it. So maybe I'll put it back.
CM-U: It's done what?
Rachel Harrison: No, I had hidden the bangs. And the fact that it has bangs, it's, um, I just wanted them to be visible.
CM-U: Okay, let's __________ [phrase inaudible].
Rachel Harrison: This is really strange.
CM-U: No, I think it's really – well, we just have to get through this stuff, and then we'll get on…
Rachel Harrison: Okay.
CM-U: "Position the toy carrot in baby mannequin's upturned hand so that the stem of the carrot is held firmly in place by the hand's grip."
Rachel Harrison: This is perfect that way it is. Yeah.
CM-U: "Be sure the carrot is positioned roughly vertical as shown in the images below."
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: Okay. Good.
Rachel Harrison: That position is fine.
CM-U: Good.
Rachel Harrison: And gravity. It will adjust from gravity.

CM-U: Okay. So now let's talk more just sort of about condition of it. How does it look to you compared to the last time you saw it?
Rachel Harrison: Fine. Yeah, no, I think it's fine. There is one thing about the condition that changed, and I don't know where. So I'll just say, as it is now – and this might be part of another conversation about the paint, the condition of the paint, that I would think you would want to talk about in terms of cleaning.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: This area, when it was first exhibited, was never cleaned on purpose. So it actually – this piece, the base of this piece was in my studio for over a year and had accumulated a tremendous amount of dust, which I chose to leave. And I notice that some of it is gone now.
CM-U: Yeah. __________ [phrase inaudible].
Rachel Harrison: So but I don't know if this was cleaned at Paula Cooper Gallery, my gallery, or here. But it wasn't cleaned by me. So I would say now we don't clean the inside.
CM-U: Good point.
Rachel Harrison: 'Cause there are pieces of it here and there, but there used to be a lot of dust here. It wasn't over-cleaned, 'cause there's some webs right there.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: But it's cleaner than it was when it left my studio.
CM-U: Is that your feeling in general? I mean, what about…
Rachel Harrison: No. This particular piece, the inside of this box is an accumulation. So, I mean, it's kind of – I don't want to say anything too fixed because obviously the paint application is deliberate and casual on many parts of the sculpture. But here, for example, drips. So the dust within this space does not need to be cleaned up. So that's not my position of here, like this could be cleaned; but that shouldn't be cleaned.
CM-U: Because that was a found object, more or less, with the…
Rachel Harrison: No. No, no, I made this. It was never a found object.
CM-U: Okay. All right. But it…
Rachel Harrison: Because it's an interior. Like, you don't clean the inside of a pedestal.
CM-U: Okay. 

CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. I should phrase it that way. Yeah.
CM-U: Okay.
CM-U: So what about the paint? Tell us what it is, and application.
Rachel Harrison: Okay. So what it…
CM-U: It is.
Rachel Harrison: Okay. All of the paint on this piece is acrylic, and I can't be certain, but I think most of this paint is an acrylic paint I use on all of my sculptures, which I mix myself with liquid pigment and binder.
CM-U: Hmm. Do you __________ [word inaudible] an acrylic medium?
Rachel Harrison: I use Guerra paint from – do you know on the East Village on 13th Street?
CM-U: No.
Rachel Harrison: Oh, there's this guy, Art Guerra, who makes his own paint. He's had a store there for twenty years.
CM-U: Oh, yeah, I do know that name.
Rachel Harrison: It's completely non-fugitive. I once painted the dashboard of a car with this, and it didn't change. You can tell from the top to the bottom, it did not change. So it's artist's paint. A lot of artists use it.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: And so he has dry pigments and liquid pigments. I buy the liquid pigments. He also has metallic powders that you can add to paint.
CM-U: Hmm.
Rachel Harrison: So if there's metallic in the surface, it was because of a powder that was added to a binder; and the binder was either – if it's a flat – if it looks matte, it's a silica-based binder. And he sells a product called Acrylic 40, or Acrylic 50, or Acrylic 65, and it's an acrylic binder with different percentages of acrylic in it.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: So the pigment, the wet pigment goes into the wet binder and is mixed.
CM-U: You have total control over the saturation of the color.
Rachel Harrison: Absolutely.
CM-U: And you can make it just what you want.
Rachel Harrison: Absolutely. And this is true of all of my work. Like the painted sculptures I referred to when we were talking across the street.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. So in terms of theses paints being applied in layers, yeah, I have control over that. I mean, also, that it's acrylic; so it dries quickly. So I can see it very quickly and then decide, either in a short period of time or a long period of time, whether or not it should change.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: And this piece was worked on for many months. So the paint was applied slowly over a period of very many months. That was because some of it would have been – this piece was in the studio while I was working on a body of work that I knew was going to be shown as one project, which was a solo show in New York this year, at Greene Naftali. So I was making all of those sculptures, and this was in the studio at the same time, and I – it was pretty certain it would not be shown at the same time because the other pieces were meant to be seen together, and this was not meant to be seen with them. At that time. For this show. So some of it might be because I was using orange on another sculpture, and it was left over. So some of the paint might have been mixed for other sculptures I was working on. There was a large…
CM-U: This was the show "If I Did It"?
Rachel Harrison: Yes.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: So there was a large sculpture in the middle of that show that had many, many colors on it. So I was mixing many colors for a couple of months. So that's where the colors here are very likely a result of that. And I'd say that about all the colors that are on the top of it. Meaning, not what's on the base because the base was first. And so that's what the paint is made out of. What else do you want me to say about the paint?
CM-U: Let me just review this again. But it's not so much that these materials were around, and this is residual paint. You were just using these colors on others, and used it on this as well.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: Or is it a mix of both?
Rachel Harrison: It's a mix of both.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah, they were – yeah. I mean, that's a kind of – I mean, I guess, I'm not a painter, so that's how, even the way I am talking about it with hesitation, because I don't know how painters talk about it if…
CM-U: No, you…
Rachel Harrison: You know. Well, if Cy Twombly has like a bunch of paint on the table, and it's intended for one painting; and then he's got another painting there, and it ends up – you know, it's – I don't know if colors – some painters mix very specific colors for specific pieces, so…
CM-U: __________ [phrase inaudible]
Rachel Harrison: Right? So it's __________ [phrase inaudible].
CM-U: Yes. Yeah.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. So…
CM-U: But, no, I think it's a very organic process, what you just described.
Rachel Harrison: It's a very organic process.
CM-U: The thing that I was getting at, it's not accident. It was intentional…
Rachel Harrison: Oh, it was intentional. Yeah.
CM-U: That's what I meant.
Rachel Harrison: Okay.
CM-U: If it was just a residual accident…
Rachel Harrison: Right. Absolutely. And, yeah, I don't know. That's where I'm hesitating 'cause I don't know what is of interest for this purpose. For the conversation, in terms of the paint application, about if it's accidental, or if it…

Rachel Harrison: I mean, at one point – the piece began as another sculpture.
CM-U: Hmm.
Rachel Harrison: So, in terms of this pedestal, I had – I mean, the initial part of it, the base, this is one box that I made out of plywood…
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: …that I then put holes in because I had a couple of sculptures where they were on pedestals, and there were holes in the pedestal. So it was another series of sculptures.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: And then this failed, or wasn't needed, or didn't work out. And so then I cut the pedestal in two pieces. But I should backtrack. Okay. So it was a pedestal that had holes in it.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: And at that stage, when this was complete, I wrote – and maybe the camera wants to come over here. I wrote, "I'm with Stupid." So – I mean, we can move this for a second. So you've got the "I'm with" here, and you've got – that's actually why I should say I would probably install it so you see this side first.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: My privileged view would be that you would walk in, and you would see this, and you could read that it was, "I'm with Stupid." (backs up, then looks at painting on wall behind her) That's Rudolf Stingel, uh-huh. Yeah.
(laughter)
CM-U: That makes sense, right.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. Does that make sense?
CM-U: Yeah. It does to me.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. So why don't you shoot it from here, so you can see the language that we're talking about. So this was a contained box, and I wrote that; and then it was cut in half and altered.
CM-U: Got it. So it was contained. Just as you – a contained box, and you cut it up and put holes in it, and so on.
Rachel Harrison: And I mean, you can tell. I mean, it seems like you can tell. This is secured now, right? I secured that. Yeah. So this has been secured. There are screws from the bottom that secure this to that.
CM-U: What about the print on the tie?
Rachel Harrison: That was bought at the Victoria and Albert Museum…
CM-U: It was?
Rachel Harrison: …in London.
CM-U: That's the way – so that was – that's proprietary. That's how you bought it?
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. Somebody referred to it as a novelty tie.
CM-U: I see.
Rachel Harrison: I don't know if we put that in the list. We did a really detailed list of materials for a catalogue. Yeah, so I bought the tie like this. So, that's why I'm saying, it's another face.

CM-U: One of the things that interests me so much is that there are all kinds of materials here. I mean, there are materials that are fragile, and materials that will probably outlast – definitely outlast us and generations to come.
Rachel Harrison: Anything plastic?
CM-U: Yeah, I think that they are going to be around awhile.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: Are the feathers are more fragile? Maybe not.
Rachel Harrison: Okay.
CM-U: There are colors that might be more fugitive. That might be a color that's, you know, a proprietary color maybe in the scarf.
Rachel Harrison: Oh.
CM-U: As opposed to these good paints you are talking about.
Rachel Harrison: Right.
CM-U: So this is what I find really interesting about your work, in terms when we think about longevity, of how these will age differentially.
Rachel Harrison: Um-hum.
CM-U: And how – I mean, I realize, you know, your ideas about this could be evolving, but how do – how would one respond to that when, for example, in a more traditional singular, or even just two __________ [word inaudible] type of material, they might age the same. It wouldn't set up a dichotomy within the work.
Rachel Harrison: Right.
CM-U: And so when we make these decisions about what to restore, it's generally, "Oh, well this holds – it's held together by this. This one part has aged differentially, so let's try to bring it back into marriage with the rest."
Rachel Harrison: What do you do with an oil painting where the paint is applied in different thicknesses?
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: It takes different times to dry. 'Cause it's the same paint…
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: …but the thickness makes it – it will affect its lifespan…
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: …if it will crack.
CM-U: It'll crack. So we just accept the cracks, but if the crack became such a fissure that your eye went to only it, then we would fill and inpaint it and we'd hide it.
Rachel Harrison: Oh, okay.
CM-U: Right? So I realize this is something that will probably come over time as you and I continue our conversations, but it's an interesting…
Rachel Harrison: No, I have – but I could go through all the materials here, I mean, just to be specific…
CM-U: Yeah. And just tell me sort of what you thinking about them.
Rachel Harrison: So I'm going to start from the bottom up.
CM-U: Good.
Rachel Harrison: I want to know if these wheels were fixed. No. There's no lock on them. Okay. I would – yeah, a lot of my sculptures over the years have ended up on dollies because I work alone in the studio, and I have to move things around a lot. You know, it began out of necessity, right?
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: I have had sculptures – and I have some sculptures in which the wheels are attached to the actual base of a form.
CM-U: So they become…
Rachel Harrison: That's not a dolly.
CM-U: …visual elements. They no longer work.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. So when they end up in institutions where there's a public, we fix the wheels.
CM-U: Uh-huh.
Rachel Harrison: This has been situations that haven't had carpets, where it's actually hard to move this.
CM-U: Oh.
Rachel Harrison: So I would feel comfortable, starting from the bottom up, to say that these wheels – okay, so the Carnegie International has a form that – or the Carnegie [Museum of Art], whatever you call it, has a form that has wheels attached to the bottom of a wood base, that's then covered with cement and painted.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: And the piece is called Utopia. I decided after they acquired it that we would change the wheels to wheels that had locks. Because their floors are very slippery, so I didn't want the public to be able to push the sculpture.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: So that was something that I felt comfortable with, thinking that the condition of its viewing has changed from a studio to a gallery to a place that actually has a lot of people, like school groups. They get a lot of school groups, where a kid might push it. So I – if it became a concern for this context, or if the work was loaned to a place in which it was decided that this should be stabilized, I would feel comfortable changing these wheels as long as they were similar.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: So that would mean the same size, and the same kind of wheel. But it would absolutely be fine if the bolt was a slightly different size. So I would say, kind of like the Jasper Johns fork being good enough [referring to the replacement of a missing fork in Jasper Johns, Voice, 1964-1967] …
CM-U: Right. Right.
Rachel Harrison: …when it comes to the wheels, it's good enough.
CM-U: Right. But then you would have a lock on it.
Rachel Harrison: Well, you know, you can buy wheels with locks.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: I have another – yeah, I was thinking the kinds of wheels that have locks…
CM-U: So you would change them to ones that lock.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah, to ones that lock. Another solution would be that you and I come up with something about how to fix these.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: Now I've suggested to people, "Well, why don't we just use – you know, stick some Gorilla glue in there?"
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: So I would just put some Gorilla glue in there, and then you would have the exact same wheels. If that was to happen, kind of like the cans, this is a – this piece is casual. And it's very specific. Everything here, including the paint, is very specific; but the way it's installed, if it's like this, or if it's like that, is okay. But I would want the wheels fixed in such a way that they were all at different angles. So they should not all be parallel and straight to each other. They should be, you know, as though you actually were moving it around, and it just stopped.
CM-U: So that…
Rachel Harrison: So they are all at slightly different angles, the same way that the cans are at slightly different angles.
CM-U: Okay. So a decision was made to fix them, we could do that. We could determine how they should look when we fix them.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. Maybe we want to fix them. Problem solved.

CM-U: It makes sense to me. I mean…
Rachel Harrison: I would actually…
CM-U: …if you like the look of this…
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: …and we could figure out a way to fix them, why not?
Rachel Harrison: Okay. Let's fix the wheels so they're permanent.
Rachel Harrison: Along those same lines, you know, like I was saying, last year, last spring in particular was incredibly busy, and I had too much going on. I was going to – and this is where, you know, I could consult with you in the future about this – but I think that the cans should be empty. I know that the can needs to be emptied and completely cleaned.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: The label should remain exactly as it is. I considered putting a piece of wood that I would cut at this height, and screwing in from the top to the bottom, so this became attached to this.
CM-U: Uh-huh.
Rachel Harrison: You could even find – I don't know if you can get wooden, you know, pieces of wood that are round, this big…
CM-U: Yeah. Dowels.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah? But like a big dowel.
CM-U: Yeah.
Rachel Harrison: I mean, it's a three-inch diameter. So you get a big dowel. So you cut the top and the bottom of the can. You put the wood in there. And then this is, you know, inch play, or three-quarter ply, and you go in from there, and you go in from there; and it's just…
CM-U: Well then…
Rachel Harrison: …if it was myself, I would use screws; and then this would be fixed.
CM-U: Well, then you'd see it coming out of the top here, right?
Rachel Harrison: And I decided that was okay. You're right.
CM-U: That's it. You'd see it a little bit.
Rachel Harrison: You would see it. And maybe if that…
CM-U: Or, maybe we could – don't have to do it – maybe just do it from the bottom up.
Rachel Harrison: You could do it from the bottom up, and you wouldn't have to see it. And then the other thing is that this could be secured to this in the future.
CM-U: Uh-huh.
Rachel Harrison: This is one idea.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: While I'm here today, I fix the cans exactly how I think they should be in terms of the angles.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: And you secure this to this, and then this just always rests on top.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: Because the weight – it is sturdy. It's much sturdier than it looks.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: The weight distribution, it's not heavy. So there is, between the plywood and everything, the cans are providing an adequate base. That's a good idea.
CM-U: I think that makes sense to me. Because I was thinking, you know, it's one thing to just drill a hole and then liquid run out of a can. But when there are solids in these cans, we are going to have to really un __________ [phrase inaudible].and put it back…
Rachel Harrison: Undo it and clean it. Yeah. And…
CM-U: …at the bottom [sounds like] __________ [phrase inaudible].
Rachel Harrison: And I was going to do it. Like I say, I was going to do it myself; but then it got taken away without me – I was really planning on doing it. Because I knew the show was one month, and I was like, "Oh, then I'll empty the cans."
CM-U: What I like about your idea of filling them with something solid, in the shape of a dowel or something, is that it also – it lends – it takes the weight off of them. Because now they are going to be empty.
Rachel Harrison: That was another thing…
CM-U: They're just metal – they're just thin tin cans…
Rachel Harrison: …I was thinking about that…
CM-U: …there is something else taking the weight.
Rachel Harrison: No, I was absolutely thinking about that also in terms of – and this is where you can tell me – in terms of this aluminum, if there's air inside of it, rather it being contained and closed like, can it support the weight?
CM-U: Well, why should we do it? I mean, if we can leave it, we should.
Rachel Harrison: Okay.
CM-U: Because we don't want it to crush in any way.
Rachel Harrison: That would be great. Yeah.
CM-U: I think that's a really good idea that you have, to do that.
Rachel Harrison: Okay. It was my idea to do it, and I was even going to do it where there would then be four screws in the top. Because, in my thinking, I notice when I look at sculpture or assemblage like this, I'm very aware of how something is constructed, and I notice every single screw on the piece, whether or not the artist intended it. So I would actually take pleasure in knowing that someone noticed that I had done that.
(laughter)
Rachel Harrison: You know what I'm saying, about the five people…
CM-U: The structure. Yeah.
Rachel Harrison: …the five people who notice whether or not the earring is right. I mean, that it would actually be – and it would add another layer of interest to me, that this work, that somebody else would have that curiosity. I don't think it's the meaning of the work. I don't think it's something anyone should write about or talk about…
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: …but that, on a very personal level. Like, "Oh, what an amusement. That's how they did that. Yeah."
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: So we can talk again about that. But for now, it seems like the best solution is to relieve the stress and not have it show from the top. I think ideally you don't have the screws on the top.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: And you just have them from the bottom.
CM-U: Yeah, it occurs to me that it also has a packing implication.
Rachel Harrison: Absolutely.
CM-U: Because, you know, I don't know what the crate looks like. But we don't know how it's – if we attach it to the top, then we may have a much different size work, than if we just have it…
Rachel Harrison: Right. So, in pieces is better. Yeah.
CM-U: I think so.
Rachel Harrison: Yes. Yeah.
CM-U: Do you want to position them the way you want them? Or should we keep talking?
Rachel Harrison: Let's keep talking, and then at the end, yeah.
CM-U: All right. What about the labels…
Rachel Harrison: I wanted – can – right…
CM-U: …on intermittent scratches or…
Rachel Harrison: They're fine because they were bought on the shelf, and they were fine.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: I mean – I don't know, I mean, it's not like these are Rauschenberg cardboard pieces where you're going to take all the acid out of the paper. So the paper will age.
CM-U: No, no, no, I'm not worried about that. It's not a concern [sounds like].
Rachel Harrison: But the paper will age…
CM-U: Yeah.
Rachel Harrison: …and the dye will fade.
CM-U: Fade. Right.
Rachel Harrison: I think that's fine. Yeah, I think that actually is fine because – I mean, I could say it could be replaced with something similar, but I don't think you'll ever find, like, the Princella Cut Sweet Potatoes, necessarily, in Boston. I mean, maybe you would. I don't know.
CM-U: I mean, there would be no reason to. Because by the time we reconfigure it, you know, there's no reason why it should be damaged in any way. It may fade.
Rachel Harrison: It'll fade.
CM-U: But that's it.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: Because we are going to be taking all the pressure off.
Rachel Harrison: If anything was to happen, you know, where it came off the – I would want it to be put back as it was.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: So if it was to unpeel, like the adhesive…
CM-U: Yes.
Rachel Harrison: …was to become unpeeled…
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: …it should be put back.
CM-U: So you want it to look like a can of food would on the shelf?
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: Because I do think that was one of the questions.
Rachel Harrison: Um-hum.

Rachel Harrison: Just because we are going from the bottom up…
CM-U: Yeah.
Rachel Harrison: …this is the same material that is on that red head form. That round head form right there.
CM-U: Okay. So that's that cement and…
Rachel Harrison: Yeah, it's – yeah. Do you want me to talk about that?
CM-U: Yes.
Rachel Harrison: Okay. This material is approximately fifty percent white portland cement. Added fifty percent of this – I'm going to say it's an industrial adhesive. It's called Parex®, and it's used for exterior stucco. So it's what you see on, like, fake – you know, shopping malls that have fake columns on the outside. This is what the stuff is used for, so it's a product to cover Styrofoam. That's its application. And it's rated to – you know, it's outside material in terms of it withstanding temperature change. Because it's, you know, Northeast. So – and it's – because Michelle asked me all these questions. That's how I'm talking about it.
CM-U: Good. __________ [phrase inaudible]. Good.
Rachel Harrison: So the adhesive is wet when I add it. And I add more water.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: And since it's very – I don't measure it. So sometimes there's more cement, and sometimes there's more – so this is residual from another work when it fell off.
CM-U: And what about the color? __________ [phrase inaudible] yellow over time.
Rachel Harrison: This is the color. It gets yellow over time because it's unpainted. And that's fine.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: So as I see it – like plaster. As it yellows, that's fine. Because I know that when pieces are on view, just from foot traffic, you know, you do get dirt on surfaces.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: So I would say, like a very – I mean, if you are in the practice of cleaning sculptures here – I mean, like what happens to the gridded Sol Lewitt if it gets dusty? Someone comes and cleans it?
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. So I think, in a very normal way, you would do that. But if this discolors, that's fine.
CM-U: My take on what you are saying is that if it's – you want your works to be kept cleaned enough so that they don't look unkempt…
Rachel Harrison: Right.
CM-U: …but you don't want them fancied up. And the boxes to remain the way __________ [phrase inaudible]…
Rachel Harrison: Just the inside. Yeah. That's perfect.
CM-U: Okay. That makes sense.
Rachel Harrison: So this material is then painted. So that's like what's up here. And I think that there are one or two places where there isn't any paint.
[Break in video]
Rachel Harrison: So this material was then put over this, which is plywood. This is probably like a piece of pine wood. You can see it there.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: That's unpainted wood. These pieces of wood were attached with probably drywall screws. This head form, or this round spherical form, probably has a variety of materials inside, including – that are all contained by a plastic bag, which was then covered with rags dipped into that material. So that's what this is.
CM-U: Great. There's nothing perishable in there? It would just be something…
Rachel Harrison: No, no, no. No explosives. And no food.
(laughter)
CM-U: No diamond rings.
Rachel Harrison: No diamond ring. No food.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: And I've talked to other people about this. I mean, it's also sealed by – no, it's probably plastic.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: It's probably plastic and cardboard. Maybe a piece of wood.
CM-U: Just to kind of fill out the form [sounds like].
Rachel Harrison: Actually there is wood. This piece of wood extends in the side.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: This is incredibly durable stuff. Like, I drop my sculptures on the floor, and only sometimes do they break.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: Depends on how thick it's applied.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: I was told by the person who sells – I've had a lot of conversations with the manufacturer about this material, and he said, if I put it over wood, I should prime the wood first. I should use a primer. Because of the acid in the cement eating into the wood. So sometimes I prime the wood, and sometimes I don't. I mean, just in terms of all of my works.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: Sometimes it's applied directly over wood. Sometimes there's Styrofoam onto wood. But here, this is probably wood. I don't think there's any Styrofoam here. So in terms of the rags, he said, "Oh." You know, and I also said, "You know, I'm not building a house with this. I'm make sculpture that's then going to be taken care of, and not in freezing cold or extreme heat. You know, do you think that the rags would be okay? I'm using anything between a sheet, or a T-shirt, or cotton kinds of rags. Or should I use – they sell a mesh, like a fiberglass, or a plastic mesh. And he said something like that is better. So what they sell are these sheets of this mesh, like a screening material…
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: …in different hole sizes. But I haven't used that in this piece.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: In terms of how they believe the material should be used.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: Because if it's not – because they believe it will crack, especially if it's on a round surface.
CM-U: Yeah, but they are thinking in much thicker layers, I'm sure.
Rachel Harrison: They're thinking buildings.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. No, they don't. They put it on really thin.
CM-U: Oh, they do, really?
Rachel Harrison: They put on three really thin coats. And then they actually have a stucco grade that has an aggregate in it, to get a stucco __________[phrase inaudible]. Depending on what you want from it.
CM-U: Uh-huh.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah, I can show – I have samples from the company.
CM-U: It's interesting. Yeah, I'm just curious.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. Anyway…
CM-U: And you chose this material, why?
Rachel Harrison: I knew – actually I knew another artist who was working with it years and years ago, painting on it.
CM-U: Uh-huh.
Rachel Harrison: And then I decided to try it for sculpture.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah, a painter showed me it.
CM-U: And you like it because it takes paint well? Or it's…
Rachel Harrison: I like it because it's incredibly – I mean, this is part of the __________ [word inaudible] – technically, I didn't study sculpture, so I don't really have – I'm self-taught. So I don't have a lot of traditional material. I've never – I was never schooled in any kind of traditional materials, so I don't really also believe that sculpture should be made in marble or bronze. But no one does, so that's irrelevant. This material is very easy to work with. Like people say, plaster is forgiving, but plaster cracks. I mean, plaster I actually find to be difficult to work with. I've never worked with it. I made works out of paper mache, and they did fall apart and break. And this became a more durable surface that would then take paint in a way that a paper surface couldn't. Because it could also take layers of paint. So there are layers – there are many layers of acrylic paint on this. In areas. And what I was going to show you before was, I was just saying that…
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: …if it's – like this white area is the cement without paint over it.
CM-U: Hmm.
Rachel Harrison: That's not white paint. That's probably the only area that's not painted. I mean, any place that you see an area like that is unpainted. And this is – you can see the wood. This is the – this plywood wasn't painted. So the plywood is part of it. So I wanted that to show.
CM-U: I can see it there.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah, you can see the wood everywhere. That's not a problem.

Rachel Harrison: Yeah, I mean, this a thing like – I don't know what is interesting for your purposes.
CM-U: Oh, this is – oh, let's talk about the shoes.
Rachel Harrison: Okay. Century 21.
CM-U: Yeah? Okay.
Rachel Harrison: Seriously.
CM-U: (laughs) That's the source.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: They are going to change.
Rachel Harrison: How?
CM-U: They are going to – the plastic will harden.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: And there will be yellowing.
Rachel Harrison: Uh-huh.
CM-U: And possible drying.
Rachel Harrison: Um-hum.
CM-U: And cracking. That sort of thing.
Rachel Harrison: Um-hum.
CM-U: We just accept that?
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: Or do we go out and try and find new shoes?
Rachel Harrison: Oh, you're not going to find these shoes. Because, when you go to Century 21, they are always what's left over, anyway, from three years ago.
CM-U: So you're okay with – I mean, obviously, we just have to accept that.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: Yeah.
Rachel Harrison: Absolutely. The mannequin – I bought the mannequin. And we could talk about the mannequin as well.
CM-U: Yes, sure. Let's go.
Rachel Harrison: I bought the mannequin in a department store in Germany that was going out of business. So it's also very old. And it already has, like, plenty of – you can look at the head – plenty of signs of decay. I never cleaned it really. I mean, I sort of cleaned it a little bit, but I never went nuts. So there is dirt from when I bought it.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: Oh, would you want to fix this? This is how – do you want to see how this goes? You know how it's – there's a lock inside.
CM-U: Oh, yeah. Well, that would be a great – why don't you come around with the camera and show that.
Rachel Harrison: I don't know. What do you want?
CM-U: Because we will not take it apart the way she just did.
Rachel Harrison: Oh, yeah? Okay. (laughter) But it's good to know, right?
CM-U: Very good to know.
Rachel Harrison: Okay. So all of the joints are like that. But now you're going to have to look at the instructions to find out how it is. It's part of the – this is an offering. You know how the gods…
CM-U: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Rachel Harrison: …in any kind of art, and art from any part of the world, the god offers you something with your hands [sounds like]. So this is an offering. So the hand is – and it came – I mean, in that it was connected to the – we'll call it the "If I Did It" show…
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: …there was a mannequin with a hand that was offering you nothing – with a Dick Cheney mask – so that's connected. The Janus head is connected. The double-sided head. And the devotion of the hand. And that there isn't one meaning for, in different cultures, hands mean different things. So there's no one way to read that hand, but in my own thinking, it's connected to that. And so the way we're saying that the sneakers will get old and change, this can get old and change.
Rachel Harrison: I, you know, wouldn't want it to look uncared for, the way you were saying. But if this ends up cracking, that's fine. I don't know what to do about the eyelashes.

Rachel Harrison: What's going to happen to the eyelashes? Oh, yeah, this [referring to rubber face mask] is going to fall apart.
CM-U: Yeah, it will.
Rachel Harrison: Oh, this is a problem because someone told me that the Dick Cheney mask would completely melt. And they told me that Mike Kelley has his masks he used in a performance in the last seventies and late eighties, and they were stored, and now they're just flat. And that I should have it remade. It was for another mask. I should have it cast and remade in silicone.
CM-U: Well, that's a very interesting question that I have to ask you.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: Because that's not a found mask. Then, it's a constructive one.
Rachel Harrison: Right.
CM-U: And that, we can do. We can do that.
Rachel Harrison: It would just be at great expense.
CM-U: Yeah.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: And in my experience with Kienholz using rubber masks, for example, in thirty years, thirty-five years, it had completely disintegrated.
Rachel Harrison: Hmm.
CM-U: But it was a rubber Halloween mask.
Rachel Harrison: But was it a rubber mask that was made in the fifties or sixties?
CM-U: Yes.
Rachel Harrison: Which – is that different than a rubber mask that was made in 2006?
CM-U: I don't know.
Rachel Harrison: Because the rubber has changed.
CM-U: Yes. It's possible.
Rachel Harrison: But maybe the rubber is of a lesser quality, because many products now made out of rubber I thought were made of a lesser…
CM-U: Yeah.
Rachel Harrison: …because they use biodegradable – they recycle.
CM-U: Yeah. But…
Rachel Harrison: And it disintegrates.
CM-U: This is in a museum environment…
Rachel Harrison: Okay.
CM-U: …and we don't know what that piece was in. So my guess is…
Rachel Harrison: The Kienholz?
CM-U: …that this is going to do a lot – the Kienholz piece. So, you know, this could do much better.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: It was also – it was stored. It was a piece called John Doe [1959, The Menil Collection, Houston], and the mask was stored in a wooden drawer behind, so it was, you know, in this wooden drawer, too. That was kind of an acidic wooden environment that it lived in. So we'll see.
Rachel Harrison: What about this? Okay, so this – I mean, I think this is just a cat mask, but what about – this is a Batman mask…
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: …for a child. What about this plastic? What will happen to that?
CM-U: I can imagine it drying out.
Rachel Harrison: Um-hum.
CM-U: And this is obviously a very important element.
Rachel Harrison: Um-hum.
CM-U: And so we would re-adhere it as best we could.
Rachel Harrison: For me, I don't have a difference between – I have a – when I make something, it's a huge difference between a found object and a constructed object. Because all my work is composed of found objects and constructed elements together. Right? So that's like a structural problem there.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: But once something exists, I don't have a problem with it being remade.
CM-U: Okay. That's interesting. That's helpful, yeah.
Rachel Harrison: So I actually – I don't think it's necessary, right now.
CM-U: Right. No.
Rachel Harrison: At all.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: But, for me, how this looks. What's important now is how it looks. So something that's an easier thing to say is that, if these [referring to feathers on head of mannequin] start to look really bad, I think they should be replaced with something similar.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: I think it's important that one is blue and one is orange, and the approximate size.
CM-U: Good.
Rachel Harrison: But if it was slightly different, if they were slightly wider or slightly taller, if it was a slightly different blue, or a slightly different orange. I mean, obviously I had in my own interpretation of this meaning a relationship between this and that. But any orange would make that connection. So these could be replaced tomorrow if they started to look really bad. This [referring to Batman mask] is going – this is being held on by this elastic. So this is probably the first thing to go, I would imagine. This will no longer hold this. This is also – oh, this is from the cat mask.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: And then this [referring to Batman mask] is being held on by this [referring to cat mask]. There is nothing – or did I glue? No, I siliconed it on. You can see the silicone. In fact, when I did it, you couldn't see it. So that means it's shifted. Do you see the silicone?
CM-U: Yeah, I see it.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you know what? All this is now silicone. There is silicone between the cat mask and the Batman mask, and there's silicone between the Batman and the head. And this is really already pretty dirty.
CM-U: Right.

Rachel Harrison: But that's from being in Paula Cooper's for a month, probably.
CM-U: Okay. So they started out found objects for you. You constructed them in this. Our challenge is to keep them in as good of condition as possible. If we need to restore them, or reconstruct them in some way – so it would be, in the case of the feathers…
Rachel Harrison: They can be replaced.
CM-U: …replaced.
Rachel Harrison: Everything here could be replaced with something similar. I don't have a problem with that. I mean, if you – you know, if you – and this is also where – I bought this [referring to cat mask] at the Halloween store on Third Avenue. Should I go get another one and send it to you?
CM-U: Yes. __________ [phrase inaudible].
Rachel Harrison: You want one or two? (laughs)
CM-U: Well, what we did in the case of – going back to the Kienholz again – is, we stored it in a sealed bag with this – we made a container with __________ [word inaudible], which absorbs oxygen…
Rachel Harrison: Oh, boy.
CM-U: …and these materials. Yeah, we got kind of sophisticated in trying to keep it…
Rachel Harrison: See, I think…
CM-U: Now that might be too much over the head [sounds like]. But Ed was already gone. I wasn't – I didn't have an opportunity to ask him the questions I'm asking you.
Rachel Harrison: No. No. And I actually am glad to know that you did that. And maybe it's also more my casual attitude towards it right now, which could change. But right now, I would like to suggest that – I mean, I know that even if I give you these, and they are in an airtight, dark environment, they'll slow down the aging process.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. So maybe that makes sense.
CM-U: I think it does. You know, it's interesting. As we begin to think about what this new museum at the Whitney is going to be, for example, one of the things that's clear to me in my department, which will be different from others, is, we have to have a huge facility for storing parts. Replacing, replacement parts…
Rachel Harrison: Well, what – I mean, this is a whole other conversation in terms of technology, though.
CM-U: Yeah.
Rachel Harrison: I mean, I was – even now I'm like, "Oh, I should get back to Michelle about just getting rid of that DVD player." Yeah. So, because I mean, in terms of parts, it's…
CM-U: I don't think – my own feeling, and I, of course, need to know yours; but we would make every effort to preserve what you have here and the materials you do have here, as they are.
Rachel Harrison: Right.
CM-U: They were your choice. They convey what you wanted to convey. But in the future, should we need to, we would try to restore what you have, as opposed to replace…
Rachel Harrison: Right.
CM-U: …but at some point, because you accept aging…
Rachel Harrison: Absolutely.
CM-U: …and you're okay with that…
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: …but at some point, when it's beyond restoration to a point where it's not reading anymore as the proper mask…
Rachel Harrison: Exactly.
CM-U: …then it's at that point that one would consider a reconstruction, it seems to me.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. And to me, it would be fine if this was a reconstructed cat mask made out of totally different materials, and a totally different process, but it ended up this color, and it had little teeth, it would be fine.
CM-U: Okay. Good. So yeah, that's exactly what we need to know.
Rachel Harrison: Absolutely. Yeah.
CM-U: That's exactly what we need to know.
Rachel Harrison: I feel the same way about the carrot. I feel the same way about all the elements. I think it's fine. This scarf was, you know, purchased in a Salvation Army or something, so it's – it already looks old. It's fine for the scarf to age. It's fine for the shoes to age.

Rachel Harrison: I think aging is a natural part of the process, so that's fine.
CM-U: Okay. We're talking about the shoes and how, given the nature of them, you know, they are going to crack and age. So they're going to be old shoes on a young child.
Rachel Harrison: I don't see a young child here.
CM-U: Okay. Good. What do you see?
Rachel Harrison: You know, some mannequin with a mask and a T-shirt and sneakers on it.
CM-U: Good.
Rachel Harrison: I see a representation of a small human, but…
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: I think that if we're talking about over time, nobody is going to know what SpongeBob is. I was interested in getting these sneakers, that the SpongeBob is matching the Pokemon, you know, which is just about – I mean, that's how it signifies it's a child, is 'cause of its branding.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: So I would say that it is still a child, even if the things that it's wearing are old. It's a child from the past. They used to dress children like adults, so – and paint portraits of them, and so this is just – it's, you know – it's court painting.
CM-U: I see, yeah. Okay.
Rachel Harrison: You should never call my work ugly.
CM-U: (laughs)
Rachel Harrison: You should never use the word "ugly" in talking about my work.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: My work is not ugly.
[Break in video]
CM-U: Do we want to position the cans the way you want them?
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. Just because we are going to go through the materials…
CM-U: Yes. Let's finish.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah, I wanted to do that. Because when you said that these [referring to shoes on mannequin] were going to get old and fall apart, and we're talking about plastic things cracking, and that this is important…
CM-U: Yeah.
Rachel Harrison: …but it could be reglued, and I wouldn't care. If the eyelash fell off, it could be put back.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: Things like that are fine. What about this material [referring to artificial grass]? I have no idea what this is. Some kind of plastic.
CM-U: Yeah.
Rachel Harrison: Will this start drooping more? Will it…
CM-U: Maybe – yeah, that's actually a good thing for us to talk about…
Rachel Harrison: Because that, that I'm suddenly – I don't think I could find another one of those. Because this is also something old that I bought in a secondhand shop, so I wouldn't know how to give you a second – send you another one.
CM-U: If you had to describe this, and what it's doing physically with the sculpture, how would you do that? What's important about it?
Rachel Harrison: Physically, is that it comes out of the figure.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: That's it's kind of like the way that language works in terms of puns, that there's a relationship between this, these green hairs and this green hair. So there's a – I don't know; I don't want to say – it's not a formal relationship, because it's different. And the fact that – but it's artificial grass, so it's also something fake that's meant to look real; and it deals with nature, and in the way that traditional still life painting works in terms of arrangements. It's something to add color, right? It's something that is decorative. It's a decorative grass. And I think it would be hard to locate which elements in this piece are non-decorative. I consider it like – down to the wheels and the dolly, I think there's like – in my own personal relationship to the parts, I've turned everything into a decorative element. But this, in its category, is intended to make a place more beautiful.
Rachel Harrison: So what it's doing physically is, it's coming out. And it's draping down. And it's suggesting wind. And it's suggesting nature. And it's suggesting a little bit of chaos and disorder. Because obviously there's a lot of ordered sections…
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: …I mean, this – again, I think it's a very structural piece where you have heads looking in different directions. Multiple faces, in different directions, or in opposed directions. And this is slightly more chaotic.
CM-U: But it has the sense of being an artificial representation of something natural…
Rachel Harrison: Yeah.
CM-U: …something green. Something that gives the idea of organic growth. So…
Rachel Harrison: We read it as fake grass.
CM-U: …should this change...
Rachel Harrison: It should be fake grass.
CM-U: Fake grass, yeah.
Rachel Harrison: There should be similar fake grass.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: Down to the – and actually I would feel – like you said in terms of it being – you know, I found this, and I just thought this was a great thing. I mean…
CM-U: (laughs) It is a great thing.
Rachel Harrison: …I had it on my desk, you know. I mean, I just said, "This is a great thing." So you could buy individual strands of grass and remake this.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: And I wouldn't – I mean, somebody made this.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: Right? I mean, the tape is coming off. So it's absolutely – I feel absolutely fine with these being replaced or remade or whatever it is. Yeah, I know, now I'm all worried about that, but we'll get there later.
CM-U: That's fine.

Rachel Harrison: So this is another relationship between this and this tassel. So I bought the hat – because I'm also wondering how this velvet is going to change. It's probably going to be fine. Or the shells will be fine.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: This plastic paint will probably flake off a little bit. I mean, if it's not worn, I guess not. But this was bought in Jackson Heights in Queens, and so I don't know, in terms of – I don't know anything about it, in terms of – or I don't know that much about it in terms of, you know, if how it would change or what it would do. I don't know how to describe it, necessarily. But I think that this is another thing in terms of the visual connection…
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: …with that and the feathers. And then these are – oh, these are Mardi Gras beads, and these have been – I'm worried about that, too.
CM-U: Let's __________ [phrase inaudible]
Rachel Harrison: These beads. And this is another material thing. The beads were set into the cement here and then painted.
CM-U: Uh-huh.
Rachel Harrison: Because they are attached there.
CM-U: Right. Right.
Rachel Harrison: So that's permanent. I'm just trying to think if there's anything we haven't covered. And then I'm stalling time a bit, but – you know what, there's a sticker on these beans. Right there.
CM-U: Does it say thirty – is that the…
Rachel Harrison: It's actually like – 'cause I also got it in __________ [word inaudible]. I'm not going to say it's Hindi. It's some – it's not – it doesn't say "thirty." It's something else. It's some other kind of…
CM-U: No, but yes, it does.
Rachel Harrison: No, but it – it's a different. It's more decorative. It's more – it's like…
CM-U: Oh, 'cause it goes off here, you're right. You're right.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. I think it's a character.
CM-U: Oh, you're right.
Rachel Harrison: 'Cause it came on – I had a whole sheet of them.
CM-U: Oh, you applied that to it.
Rachel Harrison: I applied that.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. I put this sticker on this can.
CM-U: Did you get a picture of that, Sean [sounds like]?
Man: No, I didn't.
Rachel Harrison: And then I want to look at this because this is where maybe I should just say the cans are fine as they are. 'Cause there really isn't…
CM-U: This was noted by the conservators.
Rachel Harrison: The sticker?
CM-U: Yeah.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. I applied that.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah, let's just say that this, since this was set up according to the directions – I just moved it – the cans can be – otherwise every time I'm moving it now, I'm more aware of the fact that I'm messing up the label. Because I probably caused the scratches on all those labels. I mean, I don't – it wasn't a concern. Oh, my knees are – so I would say that however it is, is fine.
CM-U: Okay.
Rachel Harrison: I'll put that forward a little bit (moves can). Yeah, so if you wanted to go and secure that, that would be fine. I think we covered all the materials.
CM-U: I think we have, too.
Rachel Harrison: In terms of the materials, I think that's it (pauses to read wall label). Did you have, I don't know, what's important?

Rachel Harrison: I called this the Mary Heilmann painting (points to painting on box) on the…
CM-U: You call it the Mary…
Rachel Harrison: Mary Heilmann painting. And it was. That was – that's my attempt to paint like Mary Heilmann. Yeah. So the choice – because I was thinking – I mean, I don't think these are conservation issues, but when I talked to Michelle there were other things…
CM-U: Yeah, let's talk. Yes. I want to hear them.
Rachel Harrison: Okay. So the choice of colors, and the intentional way that this is painted there – like, I'd say that the marks are a combination of intended things, like –I'm making a Mary Heilmann painting right now – so the orange on the outside is an extension of that to accidental things that I might have been carrying a brush where something dripped. But I might have also flicked it on purpose to create the look of something that was accidental.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: So a lot of the paint marks on here are, you know, a manipulation rather than actual accident. The purple was added after the scarf and the tie to increase the amount of purple because there wasn't a lot of purple.
CM-U: Other than the writing.
Rachel Harrison: Well, that's true. The writing was purple. I don't know. It just…
CM-U: Because you needed it, yeah.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. I'm thinking like in terms of the choice of colors.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: Because I said this thing before, about how some of them – I mean, I don't think you could go through the "If I Did It" show and be like, "Oh, that's the same pink." I don't think it's really true. And then I know that that's what made me think about the Mary Heilmann was that, "Oh, that has nothing to do with those sculptures."
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: But some of the paint on here, which you can't see, probably does. Oh, there's cracks here, which are fine. Maybe you should acknowledge that there are cracks there.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: When I put the material, the cement material, over the wood, if I make it too wet and it goes on too thick, there's already cracks. And so sometimes I apply a second coat and – or I'll even just like do a little bit, like just – and then the crack is gone.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: So this crack was always there, and that's fine.
CM-U: Um-hum. Makes sense.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. So I was thinking, if you were to see other cracks, it would be okay.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Rachel Harrison: I don't know, do metal screws come out of wood, and do things pop out that way?
CM-U: No, well…
Rachel Harrison: Not really.
CM-U: …not really, and if it did, we would just do it, then.
Rachel Harrison: But, I mean, is that something to address, like, should it be put back? Or should it fall apart?
CM-U: I guess my assumption would be that it should be. That every attempt should be made to keep it in the appearance of this now.
Rachel Harrison: Okay, without going overboard.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. Okay.
CM-U: Yeah. Yeah, without…
Rachel Harrison: Well no – when – 'cause when somebody said that I should take that Dick Cheney mask and have it cast in silicone and have another one remade, I just thought, "Can't I go online and buy another one?"
CM-U: Right. Exactly. I agree.
Rachel Harrison: And keep it in a box.
CM-U: That's right. That's right.
Rachel Harrison: So…
CM-U: That's absolutely right.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. So that was what I'm saying. When I have had recommendations that don't – that feel too extreme.
CM-U: Right.
Rachel Harrison: You know.
CM-U: Overall, it looks very good to me.
Rachel Harrison: Yeah, I think it's fine.
CM-U: And I think that you've answered the conservation issues very well. As well as installation issues, which are so related to __________ [phrase inaudible].
Rachel Harrison: Yeah. Because we were talking about framing and installation. I think this thing of not – it being on the same level, the floor, as a Donald Judd, and having all sides visible, and it also at different times can be installed in different ways, in terms of what side you see first. This is not the way to see it, necessarily. I think it's – I think most people would put it this way. And most people would like it this way. I think this is probably the most popular way to put it, in terms of the doorway. I mean, that it makes sense. It's generous. So for this situation, that's okay.
CM-U: Is there anything else you'd like to talk about?
Rachel Harrison: No, I think that's enough.
CM-U: Thank you.