John Chamberlain, 2000

[Speakers (in order of appearance): Carol Mancusi-Ungaro, Chief Conservator, The Menil Collection; John Chamberlain, Artist; Helen Winkler Fosdick, Co-founder, Dia Art Foundation; Doug Laguarta, Art Preparator.]
CM-U:  Today is March 27, 2000.
John Chamberlain:  And it’s __________ [name inaudible]’s birthday.  Shit.
CM-U:  And John Chamberlain is here.
John Chamberlain:  How do you do?
CM-U:  Hello.
John Chamberlain:  It is I.
CM-U:  And we are looking at his sculptures that we haven’t seen here, together, for a number of years.
John Chamberlain:  For some time, yes.
CM-U:  For some time.  

CM-U:  So my first question is just questions of how do they – how does things look in general to you?
John Chamberlain:  Well, they look all right.
CM-U:  Yeah?
John Chamberlain:  Yeah.
CM-U:  This one – this one – Rooster Starfoot [1976, The Menil Collection, Houston, gift of Heiner and Fariha Friedrich]…
John Chamberlain:  Yes, I know.  I have a picture of it on my foot.
CM-U:  Do you?  Where did the title come from?
John Chamberlain:  The rooster that’s on my foot.
CM-U:  (laughs)  Okay.
John Chamberlain:  It has star feet.
CM-U:  Uh-huh.  And you like that __________ [phrase inaudible], yeah.  Well, my question…
John Chamberlain:  You know, it’s something.
CM-U:  …my question about it is, it’s come in pieces.  It may have been one you were talking about, in fact, that was in a few pieces.
John Chamberlain:   Hmm.  No, not that one.
CM-U:  No?
John Chamberlain:  No, the Ladies of the Night or some [The artist is possibly referring to Two Dark Ladies, 1979, Collection of Dia Art Foundation, New York] – that one’s the one that came in pieces. (laughs) That’s funny. Now I don’t know where – it got really rusted out.  There was – what’s – there was also another one, I remember, Luftschloss [1979, Collection of Dia Art Foundation, New York]…
CM-U:  Yes.
John Chamberlain:  …Luftschloss.
CM-U:  Yes.
John Chamberlain:  Castles in the air.
CM-U:  Yes.
John Chamberlain:  And, let’s see.  What about Tongue Pictures [1979, Collection of Chinati Foundation, Marfa, TX]?
CM-U:  No.
John Chamberlain:  You don’t have that one?
CM-U:  I don’t think so.  No.
John Chamberlain:  Well, that was out there, too.
CM-U:  Oh, well maybe.
John Chamberlain:  But there was a bunch of others, and I can’t remember them. I think that one – there’s one in that room…
CM-U:  Uh-huh.
John Chamberlain:  …that’s sort of low to the floor.  It’s laid out this way…
CM-U:  Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  …and it has this one – that’s Pigmeat Plays the Blues, or something [Pigmeat’s E♭ Bluesong, 1979, Collection of Dia Art Foundation, New York].
CM-U:  Uh-huh.
John Chamberlain:  Isn’t it?
Helen Fosdick:  I’ll go find out.
CM-U:  It could be.  I just don’t remember the names on that one.
John Chamberlain:  It’s the one that’s sort of spotted, with pink and black. [The artist is likely referring to Hurray for Bernie Galvez (3¢ under the Limit), 1981, Collection of Dia Art Foundation, New York.]
CM-U:  Is that one you think we worked on here?
John Chamberlain:  I don’t know, but there was one that it was left at that time. Uh-huh.
John Chamberlain:  And I can only, like, put them in the time zone. 

John Chamberlain:  See, now I treat ’em different now.
CM-U:  Okay.
John Chamberlain:  See, I load them up with other – I coat them up with a lot of polyurethane.
CM-U:  Oh, so you apply that on even the older pieces at this point?
John Chamberlain:  Well…
CM-U:  Are you doing that on your new ones?
John Chamberlain:  You’re not supposed to do it on the old pieces. This looks – they look pretty good.  I mean, that’s…
CM-U:  Well, what we’ve done is, we just clean it with Pre-Kleano®. You know how you’ve been telling us about Pre-Kleano®.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, there is nothing else to do.
CM-U:  Uh-huh.
John Chamberlain:  I’ve worked in a lot of places where, you know – I mean, I went to Detroit once. And it looked like it still had the leaves in it from when it was in England.  (laughter)
John Chamberlain:  And then, like, you’re not supposed to clean these. See. And what it is is that the dust and the dirt just – I went to a guy’s place in Beverly Hills, and I did this. And I said, “How come it’s never cleaned?” I mean, my hand got turned black. It looked like three years of dust on this thing.
CM-U:  Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  I said, “Why don’t you clean it?” And then there was three welds broken. I said, “Is this the kind of condition…?” And he said, “Don’t touch the art! Don’t touch the art!”(laughter)
John Chamberlain:  No, it wasn’t terribly funny. But that overthrew me. That, and a few other facts about this particular fellow. And it turned out, you know, a little while later, the sculpture is – not only is it broken, it’s dirty, but you’ve got it on the wall upside down.
CM-U:  Hmm. So did he change it?
John Chamberlain:  Well, I don’t know. I mean…
CM-U:  You just told him?
John Chamberlain:  The guy, tsshhhk! What can you do? I mean…
CM-U:  I know. We have…
John Chamberlain:  There’s not – there’s a curious thing about L.A. I’ve had three occasions where the piece is upside down in L.A. Never anywhere else, you know. But only in L.A.(laughter)
CM-U:  That’s strange. Something – well, there are a lot of things that are only in L.A. But…
John Chamberlain:  Remember how it used to banned in Boston? You know. I think it’s shifted to L.A., you know.

CM-U:  Well, with Rooster Starfoot, when we took it out to assemble it for this installation, we noticed that it looked different in the catalogue raisonné than it has now. And there was a piece on top in the catalogue raisonné, which I can – I’m going to show you – that’s not on it now. And I don’t know how you feel about that – excuse me.
John Chamberlain:  Well, until you told me, I didn’t know.
CM-U:  Good. So then it isn’t something that…
John Chamberlain:  No, this is good. This doesn’t look – the same things do – I don’t think…
CM-U:  We can get up and walk around and take a look at it.
John Chamberlain:  It’s on the other side, isn’t it? Wait a minute.
CM-U:  Unless it’s this, and it’s just…
John Chamberlain:  Yeah.
CM-U:  Well, that piece is there.
John Chamberlain:  There is no brown piece up there. So where is – oh, well, it’s – I don’t know how it got put back together, but it’s all right.
CM-U:  See, here’s another photo of it, and it doesn’t – this is the way it is now. From the other side. Come here.
John Chamberlain:  Hmm.
CM-U:  So I guess my general question is, something like this, which is bent now [sounds like]…
John Chamberlain:  Well, it appears differently in that…
CM-U:  Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  …as soon as you change the photograph.  
CM-U:  Yeah.  So there’s a weld broken there.
John Chamberlain:  And probably somewhere else, too.
CM-U:  See, this piece is completely free. That comes right off.
John Chamberlain:  This?
CM-U:  Yeah.  Let’s lift it.  Right.  It comes right off.
John Chamberlain:  Hmm. Not good. Okay. Oh, here’s a bunch more. Better send Duncan [John Duncan Chamberlain, son of the artist] over here to weld some of this stuff together.  
CM-U:  See, that piece is completely free…
John Chamberlain:  Okay.  This is gonna bust here, too. Ah, leave it. That’s okay.
CM-U:  But what’s – I mean, do you tend to reweld if the piece is…
John Chamberlain:  Yeah [sounds like]. See, but this is such a bad weld. I probably welded this.
CM-U:  Well, your welds are very small. They are really very good [sounds like].
John Chamberlain:  But they should come up all the way around. Yeah, this is too loose. Hmm. Nah. It needs a lot of work.
CM-U:  So it needs welding, you think? Because it’s been put together [sounds like].
John Chamberlain:  Oh, lots of it.
CM-U:  Lots of little…
John Chamberlain:  Yeah.
CM-U:  And who is doing that for you now?
John Chamberlain:  It’s done by a person named Chamberlain.
CM-U:  Oh, you’re doing it? Well, do you think we can get that Chamberlain guy to come back and do some welding?
John Chamberlain:  Oh, yeah, sure.  

John Chamberlain:  What’s the next one? This is the next one? Yeah. It’s loose down there. [Walks around sculpture] Hmm.  Hmm. Hmm. Okay.  
CM-U:  This one is Slow Dancing to the News [1981, Collection of Dia Art Foundation, New York].
John Chamberlain: mYeah. Yeah, I remember. Well, I don’t know about this one [Ultrafull Private, 1967, Collection of Dia Art Foundation, New York].
CM-U:  Yeah, I do want to ask you about this one, though, because we had questions that came up about this, too. On this side here. One of the questions was that I…
John Chamberlain:  How did it get like this?
CM-U:  Yeah. What about this? How does this look to you? Is this rusted, or is the color that it was?
John Chamberlain:  Ooh, this is loose. Hmm. Do you have pictures of this?
CM-U:  Yes.
John Chamberlain:  I mean, is this how you got it?
CM-U:  It came – it was in two pieces when we put it together. Brad, it might be interesting to get Doug, if he were free to come.
Brad Epley:  Okay.
CM-U:  Okay.  
John Chamberlain:  Hmm.
CM-U:  Okay.
John Chamberlain:  Hmm. (Walks over to sculpture and adjusts elements).
CM-U:  It’s fine.(Mancusi-Ungaro, Fosdick, and Chamberlain look at the catalogue raisonné together.)
John Chamberlain:  Hmm.
CM-U:  Here it is.
John Chamberlain:  Hmm.
CM-U:  No, that’s Royal __________ [word inaudible]. That’s not it.  
John Chamberlain:  It’s smaller.
CM-U:  Yeah. That’s not it. Ultra Private. 303.
HF:  Three oh what…
CM-U:  Here it is.
HF:  Yeah, there’s the place…
CM-U:  There is it. Okay. So what were you thinking about?
John Chamberlain:  Well, it’s loose. It should be – really should be…
HF:  This is the top [sounds like].
CM-U:  This is – this is completely different.
John Chamberlain:    __________ [phrase inaudible].
CM-U:  This pattern that’s on the galvanized – that’s just the way it’s manufactured, right? So there isn’t any paint, per se, on this piece.
John Chamberlain:  No, it’s dipped.
CM-U:  It’s dipped? And the solvent creates…
John Chamberlain:  Yeah.
CM-U:  …creates that.
John Chamberlain:  Whatever galvanized is. I don’t know, actually.

CM-U:  So I guess what I’m saying is, you just need to look at – because they are different from they are in the photographs. But I guess that’s not unusual over time.
John Chamberlain:  Oh, no.  As a matter of fact, you could see the distortion, like just in that blue part, if you look in the photographs. (looking at catalogue raisonné) See, there’s a distortion that…
CM-U:  Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  Hmm.
CM-U:  Right there.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, we see this is distorted here, because this looks like it is going more this way. There it’s coming straight out. And this seems to be – see, I mean, if we walk – let’s see…
CM-U:  Just push me. Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  Just – I’m not sure. There. The picture was taken like from here, right?
CM-U:  Right. Look at the blue piece – the light blue piece.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, it still is distorted, see? __________ [phrase inaudible]
CM-U:  Well, is that the kind of thing, like, in the catalogue, we see that the blue piece is flat. And there it’s bent. Is that the kind of thing that we should try to flatten?
John Chamberlain:  Well, it’s difficult, from your point of view, because you are trying to get it back like it was. See, and you can only do that by magic.
CM-U:  Right.  Right. So, I mean, what we want to do is get it the way you want it. So…
John Chamberlain:  Oh, it’s okay.
CM-U:  …so if this…
John Chamberlain:  It seems to be all right. It’s just not together very well.
CM-U:  Uh-huh.
John Chamberlain:  Can you weld it?
CM-U:  Doug is here. Doug, come meet John Chamberlain.
John Chamberlain:  Who welds here?
CM-U:  Doug put these things together when they came out. This is Doug Laguarta. John Chamberlain.
Doug Laguarta:  Hiya.
John Chamberlain:  How do you do?
CM-U:  We’re talking about Rooster Starfoot, and how many pieces it was in when you went to put it together.
DL:  Right, it was primarily just wrapped. Most of it was just wrapped in foam.
CM-U:  Here, it’s back here.
DL:  In foam
CM-U:  The other picture.
DL:  And then there was one piece that was loose, that was right on the top of it – that was just set loose in the crate, and it was…
CM-U:  This piece, right?
DL:  No. No, that…
CM-U:  Oh, no, that piece is gone.
DL:  …that piece, no…
John Chamberlain:  Is gone?
DL:  Right.
John Chamberlain:  That’s okay. There’s…
DL:  You know, we’d never seen it.

John Chamberlain:  Where is this piece?
DL:  That’s over at a storage…
John Chamberlain:  What kind of condition is that in?
DL:  It looks pretty…
CM-U:  It’s in good – we worked on it. We worked on the Luftschloss. Is that how you pronounce that?
John Chamberlain:  Luftschloss.
CM-U:  Luftschloss. We worked on that one, I remember.
John Chamberlain:  Castles in the Air.
CM-U:  Is that what it is? I remember. That’s in good condition. Or stable condition anyway.  

CM-U:  So, basically what we’ve been talking about is that the pieces need to be more secure. And that’s your feeling…
John Chamberlain:  Well, I don’t think that I can do what I do now.
CM-U:  Right.
John Chamberlain:  See, so you’re asking the wrong person.
CM-U:  So just tell us what you think needs to be done.
John Chamberlain:  That really needs to be tightened up and cleaned. Might put a little nail polish on the welds. (laughs)
CM-U:  Let’s go look at it. Come on – can we turn around and go look at that? Come over here.
John Chamberlain:  Turn it around. No, we’ll scratch the floor.
CM-U:  What? You want to turn the piece around?
John Chamberlain:  Yeah. I don’t know. It’ll all fall apart.
DL:  Well, it’s – the one piece, this piece that’s right on top here…
John Chamberlain:  I know. She showed me. But you see it’s all…
DL:  Well, it’s – when it was sent, or when we uncrated it, it was all encased in like a half-inch foam strip, that went all around the top and bottom.
John Chamberlain:  See, the thing now is that I clean all this off now.
DL:  Um-hum.
John Chamberlain:  See. And I paint in back of here.
CM-U:  You paint back in there?
John Chamberlain:  Yeah. I paint this back part.
DL:  Um-hum.
CM-U:  To prevent the rust?
John Chamberlain:  No…
CM-U:  Just for looks?
John Chamberlain:  …it gives it another surface.
CM-U:  It’s another surface, yeah.
DL:  Sure.
John Chamberlain:  So this needs to be really rewelded.
CM-U:  Well, maybe this is a piece that we…
John Chamberlain:  I mean, if I sent Duncan in, all he’d do is really reweld all this and – see – nah.  No, I don’t do this like this anymore.
CM-U:  I know you don’t. Well, maybe it’s the kind of thing that you would send Duncan, and you would just tell him what you thought needed to be done.
John Chamberlain:  Well, no, I…
CM-U:  Or you could just send him…
John Chamberlain:  We’d come over.
CM-U:  Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  And, well, we could do them all. I think they are all – probably need something.
DL:  Yes.
HF:  Is __________ [phrase inaudible] on down, decide how they look, and then leave them in that condition till you can come and work…
John Chamberlain:  Well, it’s all right. I just don’t like it in the condition that they’re in. I mean, as far as what you see is all right. Yeah, because at this point – and then it would be only be coming [sounds like], well, there’s more, or there’s less. So – which sort of cancels itself out.  

John Chamberlain:  There’s one in there called Fantail [1961, Collection of National Museum of American Art, Smithsonian Institutions, Washington, D.C.; on loan from Jasper Johns at time of catalogue raisonné, 1986], and that was one where – no, no, it’s in the book. That was a piece Jasper [Johns] owned. He gave it to the Smithsonian. But it had a piece of – you know, this cloth; it’s not cloth, but – and it’s not woven, but it’s like paper; and it sort of looks…
CM-U:  Like a matted paper?
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, I can’t quite put my finger on what it would be. It’s like fancy wrapping paper.
DL:  Hmm.
John Chamberlain:  But I mean really fancy.
DL:  Um-hum.
John Chamberlain:  You know. But anyway, I had this whole thing covered, and it got stolen. Like, in some exhibition, somebody took it. See.  So I…
CM-U:  The entire piece, you mean?
John Chamberlain:  No, no, just…
HF:  The fantail.
CM-U:  Just the fantail.
John Chamberlain:  Just this little piece of cloth.
CM-U:  Oh.
HF:  When did you do it? Do you remember the year?
John Chamberlain:  Sixty-one.
CM-U:  Well, I guess at this point what we’re thinking is that, you know, we’ve put them together the best we can, based on your photographs; and so now we just need your intervention.
John Chamberlain:  Okay.  Well, it seems to be together.
DL:  That one has held up really well.
CM-U:  We would never do that to your sculpture, John.
John Chamberlain:  What?
CM-U:  We would never do that to your sculpture! (laughs)  

CM-U:  What about the height from the floor? Does that seem…
John Chamberlain:  Oh, that’s okay. Yeah, it’s all right.
DL:  Although it does take some manipulation to get them around and to, you know, work them into the individual pieces because they seem to interlock in places, you know.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah. I think maybe you should make a list of the ones they have the most trouble with.
CM-U:  Okay.
John Chamberlain:  And then probably should just make it in one piece. Like something like that…
CM-U:  That would be great.
John Chamberlain:  Instead of – yeah, I know, ’cause I put them like that. See, if the floor isn’t level, or the back [sounds like] – you know, like you turn to the backboard or something. Just a little bit, you know, and all of a sudden they turn. And this is where you find that the photograph distorts __________ [phrase inaudible].
CM-U:  Right. That’s what we found, and we – also, you know, I mean, maybe, at the time when they were made, it was hard to transport something that size.
John Chamberlain:  Yes.
CM-U:  But it isn’t now. You know, we transport things like that.
John Chamberlain:  Well, that. And, plus, things like this, you know, they are always – they are very awkward. This is not really – see, it’s a – oh, what the hell is it called?  
CM-U:  What?
John Chamberlain:  Well, it’s – what is it called? No, no, no…
HF:  They are hard to handle?
John Chamberlain:  No, no, it’s…
HF:  Hard to transport?
John Chamberlain:  All the parts are different.
CM-U:  Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  See. So there’s no – there is – nothing really actually fits where one might think it would fit.  
CM-U:  Well, I’m sure it does.
John Chamberlain:  See, it works all right because the orange is enough for there, see.
CM-U:  Um-hum.
John Chamberlain:  Or, if you go around it, you’ll see this is the right amount of orange with the blue.
CM-U:  Um-hum.
John Chamberlain:  All those things – that’s another characteristic. See, it’s not just – but I think it should be welded and then we’d figure out something that you could put on the welds so they don’t…
CM-U:  To protect them.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, so they don’t – see, now I do it – now I overdo it.  (laughs)
CM-U:  But the other thing is, John, we don’t let these be out…
John Chamberlain:  I keep coating the thing. I say, “Oh, it looks like it could use a couple of more.” Yeah, and you’re already at…
DL:  (laughs)
John Chamberlain:  It’s already like it’s encased.
DL:  Sure, sure. For posterity.
HF:  It works.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, it’s okay for me, you know. It works. I mean, now. I mean – see, I don’t know what you can do now.  See, if I screw around with it, it becomes another piece.
CM-U:  I know. That’s the…
HF:  And also, if you spray on a lot of stuff, it would be a different color.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah. Remember that woman in San Francisco, Jane – was it Defoe. DeFeo.
CM-U:  Yeah. Jay DeFeo.
John Chamberlain:  Jay DeFeo. Remember her?
CM-U:  Yes. Yes.
John Chamberlain:  Made one painting. She kept painting on the same thing…
CM-U:  The Rose [1958-66, Collection of the Whitney Museum of American Art, New York; gift of the Estate of Jay DeFeo and purchased with funds from the Contemporary Painting and Sculpture Committee and The Judith Rothschild Foundation].
John Chamberlain:  The Rose. Right.
CM-U:  Yeah. Did you see it in New York?
John Chamberlain:  Nah, I don’t want to look at the goddamn thing. Look… (lifts up sleeve to reveal tattoo on arm)
CM-U:  Is that the… – oh.
John Chamberlain:  And that’s older than her painting.
CM-U:  I’m not going to ask you about that on tape. But anyway…

HF:  Yeah, you should have asked him. You’ve got to ask him while his – here’s Fantail. (holds up catalogue raisonné)
John Chamberlain:  Yeah.  
HF:  What piece is missing?
John Chamberlain:  Oh, I can’t tell you. It’s in here somewhere. It would be, you know, like this. It was really rich blue, and, you know, like paper that has been…
DL:  Was it transparent, or…
John Chamberlain:  Well, it had been dyed.
DL:  Uh-huh.
John Chamberlain:  It wasn’t a small article, you know. It was…
DL:  It was a substantial shape.
John Chamberlain:  There’s the piece that is upside down in L.A.
CM-U:  What’s the name of that piece?
John Chamberlain:  This is Bijou [1961, Private collection, New York].
CM-U:  Bijou is upside down. Installed upside down?
John Chamberlain:  It was installed upside down. See, I went up to it, and I wondered, “Why the hell…?” I mean, see these were all loose; but they were over here. And then this part here was over here. And I remember, “Hmm.” And I go, “Jesus Christ, it’s dirty.”  See. And then it turned out – you know, not that it was dirty and broken – but this guy didn’t want me to touch it.(laughter)
John Chamberlain:  But it turned out that – it was only recently that I remember, “Shit, the thing’s upside down.”
CM-U:  You knew it didn’t look right. In general, how do the colors seem to you? I mean, on Rooster Starfoot. They look great [sounds like].
John Chamberlain:  Oh yeah, they seem to be the same.
CM-U:  I know. Have you had pieces where you feel the colors have changed?
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, but they’re not pieces – I mean, I put the – I was doing this piece called Root Balls, and they’ve been outdoors in Shelter Island for a while. But they – the colors have faded.
CM-U:  From being outside?  Yeah.  

CM-U:  Well, that was the other point I was going to make. I mean, these pieces won’t go outside. So, I mean, your welds, once they are corrected…
John Chamberlain:  Yeah well, they can – you move them across the street, and then the vibration could break some welds.
CM-U:  Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  And there’s some I’ve had – I mean, as bad a welder as I am, I mean, they are still together after fifty years.
CM-U:  I think your welds are very characteristic of you. And you can tell.  
HF:  Is that good or bad?
CM-U:  That’s good.  Because you can tell when someone has done it. No, you can.
John Chamberlain:  This decade, I was in a hurry. And that decade, he was really in a hurry!(laughter)
HF:  So you can recognize John’s welds, as opposed to somebody else’s, Carol?
CM-U:  I can tell when someone has restored a piece. We were looking at one recently. They are different. So that’s important. Yes? We think, how they look?
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, but I don’t think the weld – that’s like saying, “Did you reproduce the thing? And did you use the same rubber cement he used to paste this stuff down?” You know, if you were redoing a collage or something?
CM-U:  Right. Right. 
John Chamberlain:  That gets to be like making a movie, and making sure that, if everybody is on the monarch’s guard of honor, that they got the exact same underwear on.
CM-U:  But you can’t see that, but you can see this.
John Chamberlain:  No, no, that’s what I mean. You can’t see it. So it’s incredible that…
CM-U:  But you can see the welds. I mean, they do have a sense. An impact. We want to ask…
John Chamberlain:  I try to hide them as best I can. But nevertheless. You know, I think this – is this one together?
CM-U:  Nanoweep [1969, The Menil Collection, Houston]. This one is owned by the Menil. This is one you made out of a desk, I guess, of some sort.
John Chamberlain:  Hmm.
CM-U:  Some of these welds have been reworked.
John Chamberlain:  Hmm. Nothing in there.
CM-U:  Are you still looking for something in that drawer?
John Chamberlain:  Okay. Hmm. No, I see – who did this?
CM-U:  Yeah, like I said, some of these welds have been redone. That’s not one of your welds.
John Chamberlain:  Who would do that? [sounds like] No.  
CM-U:  Now this was – this was when you – these were colored steel from something other than automobiles? I mean, you used other things?
John Chamberlain:  Yes.
CM-U:  Desks. Appliances.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah. Well, the automobile thing is a little overworked, because it’s easy.  
CM-U:  Well, and permanent.
John Chamberlain:  Everything else seems to be…

CM-U:  The one question I want to ask you in this gallery has to do with the newest piece, the one over there in the corner.  
John Chamberlain:  Ooh.  I don’t know – I don’t remember that. Sure that’s mine? Hm?
CM-U:  I think so. I think…
John Chamberlain:  But you’re not certain.
CM-U:  I’m positive. Come on. This is the last one we’re going to do in this gallery, and then you get to take a break.
John Chamberlain:  Ooh, where are we going to take it?
HF:  Yeah, what are we going to do on the break __________ [phrase inaudible]?
John Chamberlain:  What can we – where can we take it to?
CM-U:  If you want to. This one is 1990 [Cone Yak, 1990, The Menil Collection, Houston].
John Chamberlain:  Ooh. Well, you see – you see the surface?
CM-U:  Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, that’s what…
CM-U:  It’s so shiny. How is it supposed to be? That was the question.
John Chamberlain:  Probably like that.
CM-U:  Like that? Okay. Good.
John Chamberlain:  Oh, you didn’t know that?
CM-U:  No, we didn’t know that. See, here’s a photograph we had of it.
John Chamberlain:  Huh.
CM-U:  And I don’t think it’s been published, so it’s important for us to know this. Why is this so shiny?
John Chamberlain:  Wait a minute.  
CM-U:  It was taken here.
John Chamberlain:  Mickey’s and Robertson.
HF:  Hicky and Robertson [photographers]. That was photographed here. So they might not have known how it went, Carol.
CM-U:  Right. That’s why I think it’s important that we…
John Chamberlain:  Well, didn’t any pictures come with it? Where did you get it from? Who did you get it from?
CM-U:  I don’t know who we bought it from.
HF:  What’s it called? Is it in this book?
CM-U:  No. It was after the book.
John Chamberlain:  Hmm.
HF:  Those people live here in Houston. Those photographers.
John Chamberlain:  Well, it goes like this.
CM-U:  Do you have it set up the way it is…
HF:  That’s right. That’s it. Is that it?
CM-U:  Okay. Okay. Now what’s different about why – this seems to be coated.
John Chamberlain:  Oh. Well, the welding is a lot better ’cause Duncan does it. And then we coat it. See all the coatings.
CM-U:  What do you coat it with?
John Chamberlain:  The same stuff that goes on bowling alley floors.
CM-U:  It’s like a clear sealer of some sort. Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah.
CM-U:  It looks good.
HF:  What’s the year?
CM-U:  1990.  

CM-U:  This one on the wall.
John Chamberlain:  Hmm.  Looks…
CM-U:  That’s pretty solid. Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  What is that one?
CM-U:  That one’s called – what is it?
HF:  Prez’s Blurb [1979, Collection of Dia Art Foundation, New York].
John Chamberlain:  Hmm.
CM-U:  Let’s look at Daddy-O. Or Oh-Daddy. Daddy-O-Springs.
DL:   __________ [word inaudible].
CM-U:  Right. 
John Chamberlain:  Well, as long as it’s together.
DL:  It’s pretty – there’s a screw [sounds like], that counter – that holds it inside…
John Chamberlain:  Uh-oh. What…
DL:  And this piece, this whole piece up here, from here on over to there, are two separate pieces. And we could never find any welds that corresponded, that may have broken in the past.
John Chamberlain:  Hmm.
DL:  So it was a matter of matching…
John Chamberlain:  There wasn’t anything in here?
DL:  No.
John Chamberlain:  Okay.
DL:  No. No. It was…
John Chamberlain:  Hmm, yeah __________ [phrase inaudible] here. Huh.
DL:  See, we put a screw in. Just basically to match` the angle that it was in.
John Chamberlain:  Hmm. Well…
CM-U:  We also – we put some screws in. I think we put some in just to secure it up in here.
DL:  We put one screw in over there.
CM-U:  Would you have a problem with that, if we just kind of – yeah, you don’t like that. Well, what shall we do in a case like that, when we…
John Chamberlain:  I’d like to come back with somebody, and we can weld it.
CM-U:  Do some welding?
John Chamberlain:  But I don’t want anybody welding besides…
CM-U:  No.
John Chamberlain:  Huh-uh. Just…
DL:  Right.
CM-U:  Absolutely.
John Chamberlain:  …my son, because he knows what to do.
CM-U:  Right. Is Duncan your son?  
John Chamberlain:  (nods)
CM-U:  Uh-huh. And then I…
John Chamberlain:  Nepotism. (laughs)
CM-U:  Well, he knows you. He knows what you want. That works. And then I think at one point they also had to attach it to the wall back there, because they were concerned about it being not – to hold the angle right. So I don’t know if that…
John Chamberlain:  Hmm.
CM-U:  But if it’s a question of coming back and doing some welds, that’s what we should do.
John Chamberlain:  Yes, but I’m not –  see, I’m not curious enough. You better not let me screw around too much.
CM-U:  No, we don’t think you should. We think that you should just kind of give us an idea of what needs to be done.
John Chamberlain:  If I start messing around with them…
HF:  You don’t want to take the time to do that [sounds like]…
John Chamberlain:  No, I can’t do that.
HF:  Well, that’s fine. But, I mean, I think that if there’s going to be – anything to be done should decide, if they’re loose, they need to be welded or whatever. Sort of get an idea of that.

John Chamberlain:  Who is this Ranier Falls? Yeah. I don’t know. Hmm.
HF:  Was this after Rainer Judd [daughter of Donald Judd]?
John Chamberlain:  Yeah. Well, that was before I found a girlfriend who knew how to make up names for me.(laughter)
CM-U:  You once told me you took names from a racing page. Is that right?
John Chamberlain:  Oh, I – we even played Balderdash to get names.
CM-U:  Uh-huh. That’s a good way, actually.
John Chamberlain:  Well, it would, uh – then there was a problem. For a long time, they had to be triple puns, you know, like Toasted Hitlers [from E.J., 1977, Collection of Dia Art Foundation, New York].
CM-U:  Uh-huh. 
John Chamberlain:  And there’s about a three-way there.  
CM-U:  Uh-huh.
John Chamberlain:  And then there was a couple of more that, they took you this way, but then you maybe have thought it should have gone this way. Those kind of titles are okay. (laughs)
CM-U:  What about a piece like this, where it looks like you’ve painted…
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, when was the last time that somebody go up that – you remember, what’s his name – Kasper – not Kasper Koenig, no. What the hell was that guy?
CM-U:  Where was he?
John Chamberlain:  Kr, Krick, Krip…
HF:  Kurt?
John Chamberlain:  Kirk, Krik, Kruck. Krrr… (laughter)
John Chamberlain:  Klaus Kertess.
HF:  Klaus Kertess. I think he’s still around.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, I know he…
HF:  He was just here.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, every time they give me a medal or something, he’s there. So the last time he came, he just read off titles.(laughter)
HF:  They’re good. They’re good titles.

CM-U:  I’ve got another question about this piece, Rainier. What about the paint? It looks like it’s been painted. That you’ve painted on it. When did you…
John Chamberlain:  No, I didn’t paint that.
CM-U:  You didn’t paint that?
John Chamberlain:  No. That’s…
CM-U:  Uh-huh.
John Chamberlain:  No, it was chosen.
CM-U:  It was chosen? Okay.
John Chamberlain:  Yes.
CM-U:  But you did start painting on some of them.
John Chamberlain:  Oh, we paint them all now.
CM-U:  Uh-huh.
John Chamberlain:  We paint the whole thing. But not after it’s in.
CM-U:  Right. While they are still __________ [phrase inaudible].
John Chamberlain:  No, I use – the sheet metal that comes in now is not, not like this stuff. It’s van tops…
CM-U:  Yeah?
John Chamberlain:  You know, they chisel off the van top.
CM-U:  Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  Then they put a bubble on top of the van or some sort, so people could stand up inside or something. Well, all those van tops are available, for three bucks apiece.
CM-U:  Amazing.
John Chamberlain:  So I bought a thousand. And then, I ran out. I used them all. I’m on my second thousand.
CM-U:  And then you take – so they are already painted, and then you…
John Chamberlain:  No. No.  
CM-U:  No?
John Chamberlain:  As a matter of fact, they are, but white, black, maroon, dark blue. That’s about it.  
CM-U:  Huh. And…
John Chamberlain:  No, we had to take them apart. I mean, there’s stuff in it, you know. We have to – gummy stuff…
CM-U:  You mean, like the padding and the fabric and __________ [word inaudible].
John Chamberlain:  Well, not that so much. But there was stuff. Anyway, they are cleaned up, and we strip them. So we get eight foot by sixteen-inch strips.
CM-U:  Huh.
John Chamberlain:  So, and then, every so often – so I just made a painting change. So the guy who works in the booth, he – I made him make some big fives and fours and threes. So he’s laid it on. So he gets little parts of a number. Could do it with letters, you know.
CM-U:  Huh.
John Chamberlain:  But there’s not – I mean, there’s just so many curves in it. You know, like angles and things. So what we did is – so we got a sort of negative and positive space and a line. And he’s painting by brush, not by spray.
CM-U:  Hmm.
John Chamberlain:  And it’s just the one formula of colors, like whatever the guy, or the manufacturer makes, see. Just those colors. And there is no – not too much mixing.
CM-U:  Um-hum.
John Chamberlain:  So he just does that. And if he – so if he does a positive, negative, and line – so if he does it on one side, that it’s hot, cold, and if the two are light, the line’s dark. So that’s the formula. So he turns it off and does it in reverse.
CM-U:  Hmm.
John Chamberlain:  Or he can do it the same stuff, but he changes the – whichever of the three positions. So he has that to work on, and that goes for a long time. And actually it’s proven to be a good move because every now and then, everything gets tiring, you know. So no matter what tube of ink, I mean of paint you open, and how good it always looked, at some point it’s going to look like shit.  
CM-U:  Right.
John Chamberlain:  And you don’t want to have nothing to do with it for a while. So you find something else to – how to work around it, or rearrange this. That’s what essentially we do. First,  there was a time when all the color looked like crap, so I said, “Let’s…” – oh, what’s it called?  “Sand. Sandblast it.” Well, I thought if we sandblasted it, we’d just take it off and maybe the steel would shine. But the steel went dull. So I said, “Well, don’t take all the paint off.” So I had this guy do it, and that’s when you saw the sculptures that looked like they had giraffe designs. Yeah.
CM-U:  Yes. Yes.
John Chamberlain:  Well, that’s what it was. Then it turned out – it was funny – I used to watch this guy going, and if he was in a hurry, the line would be thin. And if he wasn’t in a hurry, the line is much thicker. (laughter)
John Chamberlain:  So then, you know – and all these things are all right, you know, because finally I’m the one that decides to use it or not. See? So it’s okay, but…
CM-U:  Right.
John Chamberlain:  It’s really strange, you know.  

John Chamberlain:  Gee, that’s a nice looking piece.
CM-U:  Does that look nice from here?  
John Chamberlain:  Yeah.
CM-U:  It’s beautiful. What about putting them together? Shaping?
John Chamberlain:  It looks like a girl I used to know in Philadelphia.
HF:  And what was her name?
John Chamberlain:  God, I forgot. (laughter)
HF:  Mildred. We’ve gotta talk about her.
John Chamberlain:     Mildred. (laughter)
CM-U:  Mildred?
HF:  __________ [phrase inaudible].
John Chamberlain:  I saw Mildred last in __________ [word inaudible] 1975, ’76.  __________ [word inaudible]
HF:  You said ’74, and I was gone in’72. So it was ’74.
John Chamberlain:  Whenever it was I had the show [“John Chamberlain: Recent Sculptures,” Curated by James Harithas, Contemporary Arts Museum Houston, February 14-March 17, 1975] at this Contemporary…
CM-U:  Arts Museum.
John Chamberlain:  …thing, you know. That box that looks like this.
CM-U:  Yeah. Yeah. Here.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah.
CM-U:  Yeah. Contemporary Arts Museum.
John Chamberlain:  Right. Didn’t Harithas work there or something?
CM-U:  Yes.
HF:  He did.
John Chamberlain:  It was about – whatever time that was.
CM-U:  Early seventies.
HF:  But also, could we just ask this question while we’re talking about it. Do you know if Marilyn Lubetkin still has John’s piece in her yard?
CM-U:  I don’t know.
HF:  So who do I call?
CM-U:  Marilyn Lubetkin.
HF:  I’ll go get her phone number and I’ll find out. Okay?
CM-U:  Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah. I’d like to know if it’s – see, the last time I saw it, it had sunk in the mud.
HF:  All right. I’ll…
John Chamberlain:  It might be another job, you know.
CM-U:  Yeah. Now, the pieces you were talking about, you know, when you were taking the van metal from the cars, the ones you are working on now, do you then malle – crush them – or shape them?
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, we make them look just like lasagna. We make it pretty much the same as if it were lasagna.
CM-U:  I see. So you are layering them, is what you are doing?
John Chamberlain:  Yeah. But it all sort of goes to start fitting together, you know, in some way that, you know – it’s like – oh, irregular. That’s the word I was trying to think of before, in terms of the set. See, it’s irregular. There’s no one thing that’s the same as another.
CM-U:  Right.  
John Chamberlain:  Nothing fits this way.
CM-U:  Right.
John Chamberlain:  Nothing is this way. You know, it’s very irregular. In all these pieces, you will not find one piece hardly similar to another piece, see?
CM-U:  Right.
John Chamberlain:  Even though it’s a lot of stuff comes from the same __________ [word inaudible].
CM-U:  Well, it’s the way – you refer to yourself as a collagist, and that’s true.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah.
CM-U:  It is.
John Chamberlain:  Well, that part is part of the – well, it’s like, talking about that one, I mean, it’s not so much whether there was the accumulation on the top, and if one piece left, whether it would damage that accumulation; or as if anybody would really know. But if the stance got bungled so it didn’t stand, I’d object to things like that.
CM-U:  Okay.

John Chamberlain:  Yeah, there’s one there. See, there’s a giraffed-looking thing – see, that was one on one of his fast days. (laughs)
CM-U:  That’s Elixir, [1983, The Menil Collection, Houston, gift of Heiner and Fariha Friedrich].
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, you like that title?
CM-U:  It’s great. I love that title. Tell me about that title, yeah.
John Chamberlain:  Do I have to?
CM-U:  Yes.
John Chamberlain:  Ah, Jesus!
DL:  (laughs)
John Chamberlain:  Well, I don’t know. I think that we should come back and do a couple of days of welding.
CM-U:  Okay.
John Chamberlain:  But can you weld in here?
CM-U:  No, but we can move them out individually. Or what we should do is move into a place where you can weld them.
John Chamberlain:  Well, the thing is that it should be level then.
CM-U:  Well, we’ll move into a place that’s level. We can’t weld in here.
John Chamberlain:  Well, how long is this up for?
CM-U:  Another week or so.
John Chamberlain:  Oh, and then they go back to…
CM-U:  Yeah. So before they go back into storage is when we should – or maybe when they go back into storage, we could find a place there to weld them.
John Chamberlain:  Well, you don’t take them over to Richmond Street anymore?
CM-U:  No, in fact, we have a permanent installation [Dan Flavin Installation, Richmond Hall, 1998, The Menil Collection] in there now.
John Chamberlain:  Oh, really?
CM-U:  Flavin. Dan Flavin. You haven’t seen it?
John Chamberlain:  Oh no.
CM-U:  His last piece.
John Chamberlain:  Who is that?
CM-U:  We’ll go down there.
John Chamberlain:  What’s his name?
CM-U:  You remember him.
John Chamberlain:  Who? (laughs)
CM-U:  Rainer’s father!(laughter)
John Chamberlain:  What do they do when they turn the lights off?
CM-U:  Then it’s a space [sounds like].
John Chamberlain:  Ah, okay. Yeah, ah…
CM-U:  Okay. I want to talk about Gondola.
John Chamberlain:  Oh, okay. Let’s move on.
CM-U:  Let’s go into the far room.

John Chamberlain:  So anyway we started out with this. I have somebody painted a lot of them, most of them, green, but some…
CM-U:  The chassis were painted mostly [sounds like] green?
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, the chassis parts. But I have a couple – this was just the first one, and…
CM-U:  So this is the first of all the Gondolas?
John Chamberlain:  Yeah.
CM-U:  Uh-huh.
John Chamberlain:  But I didn’t do near as good on it as I wanted to do. But then I didn’t know. There was nothing to compare it to.
CM-U:  Right.
John Chamberlain:  I mean, if you see the one I have now, and you see a big difference between them, but I’m not one to say.
CM-U:  Right. Right. 
John Chamberlain:  …again.
CM-U:  Well, would that have been the color of the chassis? The reddish color? Or did that get painted?
John Chamberlain:  That’s a straight prime.
CM-U:  Okay. So that was…
John Chamberlain:  Now you could – I mean, if that had to be painted, you know, got scratched and junked up and burnt or something – you could repaint that with that particular coat. It’s a primer.
CM-U:  What about repainting these? I’ve never thought that we could do that.
John Chamberlain:  You could repaint – if it’s that (points). You can’t repaint that (points in a different direction).
CM-U:  No. So you’re saying we can repaint where it’s a solid color…
John Chamberlain:  Yes.
CM-U:  …and obviously it was intended to be solid; but where it’s broken up, that’s part of the work. Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  And that’s an ordinary primer coat.
CM-U:  Um-hum.  

CM-U:  Now when you come around behind here, though, John, it looks like there is a painted piece that maybe was painted separately, but it looks like sprayed…
John Chamberlain:  Oh, okay. Then since you said “separately,” I could tell you. They are always painted separately.
CM-U:  Okay. Good. Let’s talk. Tell me.
John Chamberlain:  Oh, you didn’t know that?
CM-U:  I did know that, but I’d like to hear it again.
John Chamberlain:  Ahh. Oh, okay. Well, all the parts are painted separately, and then they are used. And that makes a big difference, to me anyway, because there is something somewhat uncharacteristic – to put it together and then start painting it.
CM-U:  Right. 
John Chamberlain:  And also, like when I bend this stuff, and it chips – the paint chips at a certain place – I mean, that’s like eraser marks.
CM-U:  That’s part of it.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah.
CM-U:  Part of the life of it.
John Chamberlain:  But everything gets painted “foist.”
CM-U:  Uh-huh. Talk about bending a little bit. Do you do the bending, or you take them to compact – do you take it to places where they crush it?
John Chamberlain:  I’ve got two compactors.
CM-U:  Compactors. Uh-huh. And then can you control that at all? The amount of compacting?
John Chamberlain:  Yeah.  It’s electric. You press this switch with the thumb, and it’ll either go up or it’ll go down.  
CM-U:  I know. But I know that! But I mean, can you stop it, or can you – you just crush it, and then you look at the pieces.
John Chamberlain:     You can – I mean, just give it a little tap if you want.  
CM-U:  But when you’re making pieces, you are just – you are making all these parts, and then you’re lying them out, and then you put them together.
John Chamberlain:  I’ve had parts around for years.
CM-U:  Um-hum.
John Chamberlain:  I remember parts that I – God, they’re so old! But in this particular area is very little to be thrown away. You know, even if you cut all of this out, it goes into another pile. And that pile becomes art supplies, too.
CM-U:  Right.
John Chamberlain:  Because you – if the pile is large enough, then, “What do I do with this pile?” And that’s essentially how I continue.  

CM-U:  Look at that one from here.
John Chamberlain:  From here?
CM-U:  Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  I can barely see it.
CM-U:  Come on! You know, someone came in. A child came in. I never told you this. When we opened this building, your pieces took over this whole gallery just like it is now, except without the walls. Do you remember? It was just one great big space. We had all the Gondolas over there.
John Chamberlain:  Hmm. Oh, you put these walls in?
CM-U:  Yeah, we put these walls in. A child came in who was autistic, with her parents, and she was going through the galleries, and she said, “They’re butterflies.”
John Chamberlain:  Oh, yes.
CM-U:  As I was standing there looking at it, that’s what came to mind. It’s almost weightless in a way.
John Chamberlain:  Well, I remember, it wouldn’t go any higher than that.
CM-U:  You tried, huh? Oh, and now, before we leave this gallery, this one [Softer Sticks, 1979, Collection of Dia Art Foundation, New York]. What about the paint on this? I mean, that’s very unusual.
John Chamberlain:  Well, it looks all right to me. I’m just trying to figure out if they are put together well, you know. (grabs sculpture and shakes) Hmm. Hmm.
DL:  It’s got a lot of flexibility.
John Chamberlain:  Uh-huh. I don’t know if that’s good or bad. Well, maybe I’ll call Duncan after a while and just talk to him about it.
CM-U:  Okay.
John Chamberlain:  See – oh, yeah, this is – I can see where it’s been welded here by other people. Hmm.  
CM-U:  Okay.
John Chamberlain:  Well, it seems to be okay. It could be just beefed up a little bit.
CM-U:  Uh-huh. Okay. Is there anything else you want to say about the metal, coated metal pieces, before we move on to something else? I mean, I’m accepting all of this, the scratches and everything. I mean, that’s just – that’s…
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, that’s the way it was.
CM-U:  …that’s the way it was.
John Chamberlain:  I don’t think that there’s an awful lot wrong. It just needs more attention. Yeah, well, maybe we could do that. (examines and shakes Hurray for Bernie Galvez (3¢ under the Limit), 1981, Collection of Dia Art Foundation, New York) Hmm. Hmm.
CM-U:  Okay. Let’s go in and talk about foam. Sit down and look at the foam pieces.
John Chamberlain:  What are we going to do tomorrow?
CM-U:  We’ll find something to do.
John Chamberlain:  Oh, okay.

CM-U:  What is this? What is the makeup of all of that?
John Chamberlain:  Well, I was – you mean the bottom part?
CM-U:  Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  Well, that’s just something to put it on.
CM-U:  Yeah, but you made that.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah.
CM-U:  Yeah. This is called Mesa [(piece of the Rock series), 1981, Collection of Dia Art Foundation, New York].
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, I remember.  (laughs)
CM-U:  Where did it come in…
John Chamberlain:  And it actually was supposed to have some paint on it that went around. I don’t know what happened. That must have just, hm…
CM-U:  So now how does this – was this the first, these little ones? I mean, I’ve read about your show…
John Chamberlain:  No, that’s another set.
CM-U:  That’s another set? Okay. The first ones were very tiny little ones, right?
John Chamberlain:  Umm, not necessarily. But they’d had no paint – or, no watercolor on them.
CM-U:  Okay.
John Chamberlain:  See, then this was wrapped, so __________ [word inaudible]… had it kinda like – I don’t know. I can’t remember. The Penthouse Series.
CM-U:  That’s right.
John Chamberlain:  Or something. No, the Penthouse Series was paper bags. This is called Barking at the Dog, or something.
CM-U:  These are called Stuffed Dogs.
John Chamberlain:  Stuffed Dogs.
CM-U:  Stuffed Dogs, 1, 2, 3, 9, so on.
John Chamberlain:  I think the…
CM-U:  These are all Stuffed Dogs.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, one – that they have some – a vague amount of color on them. Well, there was a whole bunch of these, but then this [referring to Mesa] seems to be the only one that’s left.
CM-U:  But these are the only ones that you mounted on something else.
John Chamberlain:  And this is a throwaway (touches large foam work).
CM-U:  Well, we don’t know what that is.
John Chamberlain:  Well, this – well, when this stuff loses – gets dirty, and loses its crispness…
CM-U:  Hmm.
John Chamberlain:  See these – it’s amazing that you can see – that one is still clean. That’s a very – that’s a good, really good…
CM-U:  That’s a beautifully clean one. So is this one. Let’s look at this one [Stuffed Dog 3, 1970, Collection of Dia Art Foundation, New York].
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, see the marks are still – see is how it was when it was new?
CM-U:  Yeah. It was much lighter when it was new.
John Chamberlain:  See, now, if I was with Susan Lemond [sounds like], she’s, like, “No, you can’t do that. Oh, don’t you do that. Oh, don’t do that. Oh, don’t do that.”[laughter]
CM-U:  Okay. Now what about the paint? The paint went on first before you wrapped it all up?
John Chamberlain:  Yeah. But, again, a lot of these, if it goes, it goes.
CM-U:  What does that mean?
John Chamberlain:  Well, that means it goes. See, as long as it stays, you know, like – see, this is very crisp. See how. See this part?
CM-U:  The edge is very crisp.
John Chamberlain:  See how the edge is here?
CM-U:  Yes.
John Chamberlain:  I mean, it has…
CM-U:  It’s beautiful.
John Chamberlain:  See, well, it’s lost it in this. See how it’s lost it?
CM-U:  Yes, I do.  
John Chamberlain:  Well, now all of these were just as crisp.
CM-U:  Uh-huh.
John Chamberlain:  It didn’t matter what the size is.
CM-U:  And did you use different kinds of foam? Different types? Sizes?
John Chamberlain:  No, about the same.
CM-U:  No, it was all the same? And where did you buy this stuff? Did you just have slabs and slabs of it delivered to your place?
John Chamberlain:  (laughs) Yes.
CM-U:  And where were you making them? In New York?
John Chamberlain:  In wherever I was at the time.
CM-U:  Uh-huh.  
John Chamberlain:  (digs through jacket pocket) What happened to Helen?
CM-U:  Helen. Helen? Who? Well, anyway, well, talk to me about the colors.
John Chamberlain:  Helen, who?
CM-U:  She’ll be back. She had to go pick up her son.
John Chamberlain:  Oh, okay.
CM-U:  So, originally the color of them all were something like this? A lighter color?
John Chamberlain:  Yeah.  But that’s what I was showing you. See that’s…
CM-U:  Yeah. The interior.
John Chamberlain:  That’s the color when it first – first of all, it’s yellow. It’s like this color when they pour it. And they pour – it’s liquid. And they pour it on a belt, and it rises up and turns white.
CM-U:  Huh.
John Chamberlain:  And then when it’s exposed to the light, it goes back to being yellow again.

CM-U:  Have you seen some – I mean, how does that strike you when it’s at that state? Have you seen some that are so aged, in your opinion, that they lose their life?
John Chamberlain:  Oh, I’ve got them when they’re crumbling.
CM-U:  And they are still – I mean, they still work for you as sculptures?
John Chamberlain:  No, not particularly, but it was a good idea at the time. (laughter)
CM-U:  Well, what about that one? That one’s called Lop Nor [1967, Collection of Dia Art Foundation, New York].
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, I know. Yes, and it’s also thirty years old, too. Or something like that.
CM-U:  Uh-huh. But that’s not so long, thirty years.
John Chamberlain:  No, it was made in 1966, I think.
CM-U:  Sixty-seven, I think. Maybe ’66. But that’s not so – I mean, that’s not so long.
John Chamberlain:  Well, if you take care of this stuff, it is.
CM-U:  Have you ever had them washed or cleaned in any way? No?  
John Chamberlain:  Well, let’s see…
CM-U:  Now this is an interesting one because for some reason – it’s Stuffed Dog 3, I think; maybe 9. No, it was Stuffed Dog 1 [1967, Collection of Dia Art Foundation, New York]. It’s glued to the box.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah. (laughs)
CM-U:  Did you do that?
John Chamberlain:  No, I don’t…
CM-U:  You don’t know?
John Chamberlain:  No, I don’t remember having anything to do with these boxes. That was somebody else’s doing.
CM-U:  Um-hum.
John Chamberlain:  But see that one held up good.
CM-U:  Let’s go look at that one. I want to look ’cause that one looks really good.
John Chamberlain:  __________ [phrase inaudible]. This seems to be all right. __________ [phrase inaudible]. I don’t know that you can do a whole lot once that they start to deteriorate.
CM-U:  Did you just throw color on it, or spray color on them, or soak them, or…
John Chamberlain:  No, no, I don’t remember.
CM-U:  Oh.
John Chamberlain:  I was drinking that day.(laughter)
CM-U:  You talked about, in some interview with someone, about them being examples of your wadding technique. What do you mean by that?
John Chamberlain:  Oh, yeah, these are wadding in the sense that they are – see, all of this – this is all __________ [phrase inaudible] – it’s all there because of the way the material is and the way it is treated with the cinch.
CM-U:  Right.
John Chamberlain:  See, the cinch is in there.
CM-U:  So it’s one piece, or two pieces that’s held together with a rope?
John Chamberlain:  Yeah.
CM-U:  Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  But you see how white it is in here?
CM-U:  Uh-huh. Well, what do you think about the color? I know it’s not as white as it was, but it is certainly still…
John Chamberlain:  Oh. And if you want to, you know, make sure that it would stay together…
CM-U:  Uh-huh.
John Chamberlain:  …you could do – if you just did this (squeezes foam sculpture), but you sprayed it with – you get paper cement in a can – from, 3D?
CM-U:  3M.
John Chamberlain:  3D! (laughs) Hmm. See, and then you could spray down to here, and just hold it a little bit together till it takes.
CM-U:  But that would just discolor it more, wouldn’t it?
John Chamberlain:  Well, no, not down in here. This is the bottom.
CM-U:  Um-hum.
John Chamberlain:  And then, you know, you just (squeezes foam sculpture)…
CM-U:  Have you done that with some of them?
John Chamberlain:  Yeah.
CM-U:  You still own some of these?
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, a couple.
CM-U:  Um-hum. Um-hum.

CM-U:  Well, we were interested in looking at them because even thought these are all pretty much from the same period – the Stuffed Dogs are 1970, but Lop Nor and __________ [word inaudible] and the others are all the sixties. Late sixties. But we were marveling at how different the color of the foam is. And we thought that was in part due to maybe how they were stored? Why do they all – why are the colors all so different?
John Chamberlain:  They’ve been exposed to light differently.
CM-U:  Uh-huh.  
John Chamberlain:  And I don’t know what these two have been through, see. But they look like art supplies now, at best. Cut the rope.  
CM-U:  No, you don’t really – you still see them as your work, don’t you?
John Chamberlain:  Well, not now.
CM-U:  No?
John Chamberlain:  A little too unraveled, I’d say.
CM-U:  So, not tight enough, in your view? Oh, but look at that. That looks quite tight. What about the ones on paper behind them? I don’t understand how they relate exactly to the sculptures.
John Chamberlain:  Oh, I didn’t see them! Hmm. Oh, I remember these. Funny. These are my French curve drawings.
CM-U:  Um-hum.
John Chamberlain:  Ooh. Yeah, I think this is really too beat [referring to Lop Nor] ’cause actually – no, it was that one – I remember, see – yeah, it’s pretty tight. Nah. And I don’t know how to clean it.
CM-U:  If there were a way to clean it, you would…
John Chamberlain:  It would be dry cleaning.
CM-U:  Yeah. But that would appeal to you, to try to get rid of some of this discoloration?
John Chamberlain:  I don’t know. You might screw it up more.
CM-U:  So did you make the drawings first? And then are the drawings directly related to the sculpture pieces?
John Chamberlain:  I just made them at the same time.
CM-U:  Uh-huh. Okay. Well, we’ve been thinking about how we’re going to preserve these sculptures.
John Chamberlain:  I don’t know how you can clean that and clean it all at the same time. See, and then this is – you’re not going to get this out. I don’t even know what that is.
CM-U:  Let’s turn it around so we can look at it in the light. But this is the way it was when you chose the foam.
John Chamberlain:  See the…
CM-U:  With the holes in it. With these, over here on this side. This.
John Chamberlain:  Oh, that’s the bottom. No that’s…
CM-U:  We don’t have this in the right position?
John Chamberlain:  Nah, that’s the skin. That’s the skin. That’s no, no, when they pour it on a belt…
CM-U:  Uh-huh.
John Chamberlain:  …this is the bottom. This is the skin. I don’t know any other way…
CM-U:  Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  It’s like skin. See, if you get a big piece of foam…
CM-U:  Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  …not something that’s, you know, for pillows or mattresses…
CM-U:  Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  …but a really big piece, you’ll find that this is – they’ll all have this.
CM-U:  So this is the down side, and then you cut the piece from there and shape it?
John Chamberlain:  Well, this is part of it, too, here. See. It starts over here.  

CM-U:  Okay. So you feel that this one has really suffered?
John Chamberlain:  Well, uh…
CM-U:  Wow, it looks so orange from here. It looks almost painted.
John Chamberlain:  Put it out in the sun for a couple of days. (laughs)
CM-U:  Well, we’re aware of the fact that what’s really – as you are – that what’s really affecting this is light. Oxygen. Just being in our environment. And so we are seriously considering – in fact, we’re making plans to store these when they are not on exhibition in environments that don’t have oxygen in them. __________ [word inaudible]
John Chamberlain:  No, you don’t have to put them in a deprivation [sounds like] plant or something.
CM-U:  We’re making bags…
John Chamberlain:  No. Why don’t you just put a black plastic over it?
CM-U:  Because plastic – it still is going to disintegrate because of the oxygen that’s in it. The plastic will just make it dark to keep out the light, but it is still…
John Chamberlain:  Well, the light is what changes the color.
CM-U:  But it’s also the oxygen.
John Chamberlain:  Really?
CM-U:  Um-hum. So we – Brad [Epley, Menil Assistant Paintings Conservator] has actually been designing bags…
John Chamberlain:  So a black bag with nitrogen in it?
CM-U:  Right. Or a clear bag with nitrogen, so we can see it. And then keep it in the dark. How does that strike you?
John Chamberlain:  I don’t know if I want to be kept in the dark, though. (laughter)
John Chamberlain:  Do I have to be kept in the dark?
CM-U:  We can do you, too, I suppose.
John Chamberlain:  Thanks a lot. (laughter)
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, just come in once a month and milk the snake. Yeah. Okay. I don’t know if I can tell you any more about these.
CM-U:  Okay. Well, that’s all right. I think you’ve answered my – let me see if you’ve answered the questions I had. I’ve seen you describe – I’ve heard you…
John Chamberlain:  Now if I – let’s see.  

John Chamberlain:  I don’t know if the guy is still alive that – Sidney Fiedler [CEO, Dura Foam, Inc., Maspeth, NY]. I mean, he was alive a couple of years ago. I used to get all the foam from him.
CM-U:  And what city are we talking about?
John Chamberlain:  Well, we’re talking about New York.
CM-U:  Okay.
John Chamberlain:  He’s actually in Brooklyn. In Jamaica.
CM-U:  Um-hum.
John Chamberlain:  Or something like that. Out by Kennedy. But he was always a kind of funny fellow.
CM-U:  And he’s the guy who made – actually produced this stuff?
John Chamberlain:  No, he orders it from Tennessee, where they pour it.
CM-U:  Oh.
John Chamberlain:  There’s a half a dozen huge corporations that make this.
CM-U:  Um-hum.
John Chamberlain:  And they make it in three or four different – the cell is bigger or smaller.
CM-U:  Um-hum.
John Chamberlain:  So it’s softer or harder. And if it’s really hard, then it’s Styrofoam.
CM-U:  And how would you determine what size cell you wanted?
John Chamberlain:  Oh, I – except for the piece I did for the Guggenheim [Guggenheim Barge, 1971, Private Collection]…
CM-U:  Yeah. Tell me. That’s one of the – was that one of the couches?
John Chamberlain:  Yeah. That was the softest one. I had him give me the softest. And it was – so it was 24 feet by 12, I think, and about this high.  But I wanted the softest, so once they – somebody, you know, just went in. You know, they really laid down.
CM-U:  To sit.
John Chamberlain:  So they’d look straight up to the ceiling.
CM-U:  So they’d fall into it.
John Chamberlain:  Well, it was like a T-square. See, you know, you have to understand that the rotunda in the Guggenheim is difficult. There’s only a couple of people who have been able to deal with it without it looking staged.
CM-U:  Right.
John Chamberlain:  See, and this was one of them. And I always wondered – you know, I always had this feeling of wanting to do something, to see if I could take care of that problem, so to speak. And I went ahead and did it, and didn’t think about that. Then I thought about it after I’d done it. “Gee, I guess you did.”
CM-U:  Was that…
John Chamberlain:  It seemed that this was the horizontal on the floor…
CM-U:  Right.
John Chamberlain:  …you know. And then, when you’re in the thing, and you are boxed in by two TVs that are playing sort of stupid country music…
CM-U:  Um-hum.
John Chamberlain:  …and – by artists, by the way. And then – but you go in, and you’re so laid out flat that you look to the top. So there’s an element of this. So it’s sort of like a T-square.
CM-U:  And how big – so it was big enough for many people to be in it at once, I take it.
John Chamberlain:  Oh, that was part of the idea.
CM-U:  So the minute you sit down, you fell back?
John Chamberlain:  And the other thing about the couches were that they had no hard parts. There’s no hard parts.
CM-U:  All foam.
John Chamberlain:  It’s all foam, yeah.  
CM-U:  Have they survived? The couches.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah. Well, you didn’t – okay, you didn’t go to – oh, well, Helen can tell you about the floor I had on 22nd Street.
CM-U:  Uh-huh.
John Chamberlain:  There’s four new ones, plus the nest. Did she ever tell you about the nest?
CM-U:  I don’t remember. What was that?  
John Chamberlain:  Well, in the nest there are two blocks. See, one block is this high (holds hand in air). See, and then the next block goes on. No, it must be higher than this. Well, maybe it’s like that. I get the idea that it’s about nine feet up, is the top of it. See, and I made a little place in there, and I put this rack – it was scaffolding.
CM-U:  Um-hum.
John Chamberlain:  The scaffolding is the bedside table. So it’s a nest.
CM-U:  I see.
John Chamberlain:  So you have to climb up…
CM-U:  Climb up…
John Chamberlain:  …to get in, yeah.
CM-U:  And  then when…
John Chamberlain:  But it appears to be much higher than eight or nine feet. That’s what it is.  
CM-U:  And how long was that installation up?
John Chamberlain:  Well, they just took it down ’cause Dia was going to sell the building.
CM-U:  Uh-huh.
John Chamberlain:  But now Dia didn’t sell the building, so does it go back in?

CM-U:  Are you still working in foam?
John Chamberlain:  No. Not unless you really want to put an offer in front of me that’s too good to refuse, and I’ll do something.
CM-U:  And you moved on.  Was it because of concern about preservation, or just you were ready to move on?
John Chamberlain:  Well, first of all, it takes up a lot of space. And everybody wants one, but nobody wants to buy one.
CM-U:  Oh.
John Chamberlain:  And I tried even to sell one to Plato’s Retreat.
CM-U:  What’s that? (laughter)
John Chamberlain:  Oh, that was a sort of a half ass legal massage whorehouse in Ansonia. You don’t remember Plato’s Retreat?
CM-U:  No, I don’t.
John Chamberlain:  Huh? You do.
CM-U:  Haha. Right. (laughter)
John Chamberlain:  Anyway, I tried to sell them. “Oh, no, too much money. Too much money.”
CM-U:  Let me see what else I wanted to ask you about Stuffed…
John Chamberlain:  Okay.
CM-U:  …Dogs.
John Chamberlain:  What are we going to do tomorrow?
CM-U:  What? Tomorrow…
John Chamberlain:  If we do this today, what do we do tomorrow?
CM-U:  Well, tomorrow we’re going to talk more about this stuff.  
John Chamberlain:  We are?
CM-U:  Yeah.
John Chamberlain:  Do we have to come here to do it?
CM-U:  No.
John Chamberlain:  Oh, good. Are we going to be filmed again?
CM-U:  No. So anything you want to say for posterity, now is your time. (laughs) How’s that for pressure?
John Chamberlain:  (looks into camera) After you observed it, what remains to be seen?
CM-U:  Thanks, John. This was really interesting and helpful.
John Chamberlain:  Art ain’t easy, and all this proves it.

CM-U:  Now you said somewhere – I was going to ask you about this, because I thought it was interesting and typical of you. You said something about these foam pieces make people nervous because they go faster than people do.
John Chamberlain:  Oh, yeah. Well, I mean it’s – for instance, I have trouble – for instance, when the Gondola – when the flotilla [Dooms Day Flotilla, 1982, Collection of Dia Art Foundation, New York]– remember there’s seven of them?
CM-U:  Yes.
John Chamberlain:  So there was seven of them. And I tried to get – and they were on – they had a floor at Dia for a year [“John Chamberlain: Gondolas (1981-1985) and Dooms Day Flotilla (1982),” Dia:Chelsea, New York, April 5, 1990-March 3, 1991]. I kept saying to them, “Well, what do people think about having to look down?” And nobody ever gave me an answer.
CM-U:  Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
John Chamberlain:  And they had to keep looking up. They are used to, you know, you have to look up. You wouldn’t think of looking down.
CM-U:  Right. 
John Chamberlain:  See, so there’s an angst in there somewhere. I don’t care much about it. But the Gondolas did that. So the story was that I left this place in New York because the ceilings were closing in, and it’s time to leave, get out of there. Actually I hadn’t been there as long as I should have been. But it turned out that, “Okay, I gotta get out of here, da-da-da.” So I left. Went down to – and got this studio in Florida. You know, this 18,000 square feet. And really high ceiling. I wanted to get down there so I could, you know, have a higher ceiling. So I get down there, and what do I do? Three foot high, you know. I tell you, ’cause it happened. [sounds like] That’s terrific, isn’t it?
CM-U:  That’s life.
John Chamberlain:  No, I think it was marvelous. I thought it was interesting, whether people look down or look up.  

John Chamberlain:  And as far as these (picks up Stuffed Dog 3), I mean, listen, I mean, for crying out – I mean, if it takes you more than five minutes to get it, you’re not going to get it anyway. So what difference how long it lasts?
CM-U:  What difference how long it lasts?
John Chamberlain:  Yeah!
CM-U:  Well, we’re committed to making them last a long time.
John Chamberlain:  Well, they usually do. Only I don’t know what happened to these, but most of them, though, seem, yeah, seem to be all right.
CM-U:  Hmm. Well, great.
John Chamberlain:  There just wasn’t a lot of them, because – I don’t know. I can see – if I get the point, and I can shuffle through it, and it’s another form of, you know, what kind of materials you have, what are the art supplies at the moment, that’s usually how I go to work.
CM-U:  Um-hum.
John Chamberlain:  And so it either is terrific for a while, and then you run out of that particular stock of materials, and it seemed to me it is just – that’s when you know how to quit. Or you quit because there’s no magic left, or, you know, nothing pops up that you didn’t expect, and things like that. See, it’s just like, “What did Tiger do today?”
CM-U:  I don’t know. He was…
John Chamberlain:  See, yesterday he lost the magic. See, he couldn’t hole out or nothing. I mean, he was just barely is able to keep up.
CM-U:  He will.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, but, you know, there’s days when you lose the magic. Or, when they just don’t go together. Or you wreck [sounds like] – you know, if you have a pile of art supplies, and you put things together, and they do __________ [phrase inaudible]. Finally, the art supplies get down to there is very little. So the choice is less and less and less and less and less. So at some moment there, you can’t complete this because there is no more choice.
CM-U:  But you don’t mix media. You stay pretty…
John Chamberlain:  No, no, you can’t. It’s very difficult to mix media. It’s sort of like you made a movie that is black and white with some color. It’s very difficult. Not too many people have done it.
CM-U:  Um-hum.  
John Chamberlain:  Actually, hardly anybody has done it.
CM-U:  Um-hum.
John Chamberlain:  I was going to work on a movie once, with Bill [William S.] Burroughs. And it was the life of – no, no, The Last Words of Dutch Schultz [1970]. Which it was 26 hours of gibberish, see, but you see, you could make – but the only thing is, a black and white movie. And the only color was red, and the red only showed up when there was blood.
CM-U:  Hmm.
John Chamberlain:  Like, there was blood when he was born.
CM-U:  Hmm.
John Chamberlain:  And there was blood when he got circumcised. And there was blood every time he shot somebody. (laughter)
John Chamberlain:  So, I mean, the only color, it was blood, right? So that was a characteristic where those two things could go – an intermediate, you know. An intermedia of stuff. A little floral design, so to speak. But I find this – it gets kinda – it’s not that you can’t do it. It’s just, I don’t know what you’re doing, you know.
CM-U:  Um-hum.
John Chamberlain:  When you’re allowed to do anything, I mean, a lot of times no one knows how to differentiate and how to stabilize what you really are doing. So after you observed it, what remains to be seen?
CM-U:  I guess that sums it up. (laughter)
CM-U:  Thank you. Okay.

John Chamberlain:  Hey, you got here just in time.
HF:  What did I miss?
CM-U:  Just in time. We just ended. Did you have something…
HF:  What did I miss? I had to go get Aden and take him to __________ [word inaudible].
John Chamberlain:  Well, you can’t miss anything you never had.
HF:  Yes, I can.
John Chamberlain:  No, you can’t.
HF:  Yes I can.
John Chamberlain:  No, you can’t. Yes, you can. No, you can’t. Yes, you can.
CM-U:  Okay.

[Break in video]

HF:  What do you think about __________ [phrase inaudible] sealing those?
John Chamberlain:  Huh?
HF:  Sealing those up?
John Chamberlain:  No. Then they wouldn’t be soft.
CM-U:  Well, you don’t object to us putting them in bags, do you?
John Chamberlain:  Oh, no, no. No, no. No, she said sealing them up.
CM-U:  He thought you meant spraying them.
HF:  I know. I meant putting them in those bags.
John Chamberlain:  I tried all that. You know, I suppose that would have worked, you know, like if I was a real “market it” [sounds like] type. But I thought it was non-art, if you were to, you know, like, make these in bronze or…
CM-U:  It is. It is. I mean, it’s our job to preserve them. But why would you deal with it? It doesn’t make sense.
John Chamberlain:  I still think it – you know, if it takes you more than five minutes to get it, it’s not going to make any difference anyway. (laughs)
HF:  Do you mind the difference between what this looks like and what that looks like? (points from one work to another)
John Chamberlain:  No, I think this [Lop Nor] is down the hatch.
HF:  Yeah. Well, are the others going to get like that?
John Chamberlain:  No. This one will be down the hatch. No, not as long as – I think it’s been – it’s been coated with something.
CM-U:  I don’t think so, John, ’cause some of it is soft.
HF:  Okay. No, how do you make – do you make that decision, whether they stay or go or…
John Chamberlain:  Well, there’s not much there. I mean, I don’t know how to pull it back, you know. If I untied it, and tied it again, it would be another piece.
CM-U:  And that wouldn’t solve the problem of the material anyway.
John Chamberlain:  No, it’s still dirty.
CM-U:  And aged. But on the other hand, it has a certain beauty…
HF:  You don’t want it to be a piece when it looks like that? Are you saying that?
John Chamberlain:  What? Nah. This looks terrible.
HF:  So you don’t want it to be a piece anymore?
John Chamberlain:  Nah.  

John Chamberlain:  Should we fix your piece [Untitled]?
HF:  I know.
John Chamberlain:  Stuffed Dog. Is that right, Stuffed Dog?
CM-U:  These are Stuffed Dogs (points toward other works on the table). I don’t know what you call Helen’s piece.
John Chamberlain:  That was something else, too. I thought that was a…
CM-U:  How did you get that piece?
HF:  I went and visited John in Sarasota.
John Chamberlain:  What the hell was it? ’Cause I remember that. You owe me 75 cents __________ [phrase inaudible].
HF:  What?
John Chamberlain:  You owe me 75 cents in there (opens end of foam sculpture).
HF:  Seventy-five. Okay.
John Chamberlain:  We could put another one in here. See? (places work on table) No, that’s just about right. This is about the right angle.
HF:  I love that piece.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah, it’s terrific. You know, it is in a similar condition.
CM-U:  It’s just – it’s small.
John Chamberlain:  I don’t know how to clean this. I used to – I keep thinking – you know what I keep thinking?
CM-U:  What?
John Chamberlain:  Do you know what a dry shampoo is?
HF:  No.
CM-U:  Yes. Yes.
John Chamberlain:  It’s just some kind of herbs. It’s all different kind of herbs. I don’t know what they are. But you massage it in your hair, and you brush the hell out of your hair, and the herbs will, as you brush out, will take along with them the grease or the dirt…
CM-U:  Right.
John Chamberlain:  …and they give dry shampoos in hospitals.
HF:  Yeah. They give it to – yeah.
John Chamberlain:  This is, is that a note? [sounds like]
CM-U:  So you’re thinking something dry…
HF:  No, I didn’t spin it that way. [sounds like] 
John Chamberlain:  Oh, it was actually instead of cutting it off, I just…  [sounds like] 
HF:  The only thing that – and I think I – is the tear that I think I did that…
John Chamberlain:  Oh shit [sounds like].
HF:  …after you gave it to me.
John Chamberlain:  Ohh. It’s okay.
HF:  But it’s okay.
John Chamberlain:  Yeah. It’s all right.
HF:  I think it’s stayed remarkably well. But I have it in a cabinet.
John Chamberlain:  Cat nip?
HF:  Cabinet.
John Chamberlain:  Oh, yeah, right, yeah.
HF:  A glass-fronted cabinet.
John Chamberlain:  Huh. I don’t know why I can’t hear __________ [phrase inaudible]…
CM-U:  So do you still crush cigarette packs?
John Chamberlain:  No. No, I don’t smoke.
CM-U:  Oh, that’s hard, yeah.
John Chamberlain:  Not that that means anything. I mean, other people smoke. There would be the packs around, but – no, that was an exercise that – it was interesting in the bar; but it was also interesting in, you know, taking a particular…

[Break in video] 

John Chamberlain:   …__________ [word inaudible] truck, and took it to this place on White Street that had a – I made a deal with him. He let me crumple up these boxes in his compactors. So I took them in, ta-da, ta-da. Di-da-da. Take them out. So the elevator operator is taking them up and down and he’s just,  “Hey, you know, they looked better going out than when it came in.”(laughter)
John Chamberlain:  See, so that was one of my better compliments that I like, you know. Elevator operator.
CM-U:  Art lover, yeah…
John Chamberlain:  No, no.
CM-U:  No, it just…
John Chamberlain:  No, it had nothing to do with art. But it was just that it looked better going out than when it came in.
CM-U:  Right. It was just like the compliment. That’s about as good as it gets.
John Chamberlain: Nothing more than that, and nothing less. I mean, he didn’t make out like it was a big deal or anything. Just, “They looked more interesting going out than when they came in.” I thought that was the perfect art response. And, well, that’s, you know – like that was one of that __________ [word inaudible] of that other thing that I mentioned earlier to you about the, “Why do people with expertise ask people with no expertise, ‘How do you like my expertise?’”(laughter)
John Chamberlain:  Well, I didn’t ask this guy, actually. But what he came through with was right on the money.
CM-U:  Right.
HF:  And in the clearest, simplest terms.  

HF:  Do we have John’s book that his gallery produced?
CM-U:  I don’t know.
John Chamberlain:  Conversations with Myself?
CM-U:  No.
John Chamberlain: No. Little book with a stupid-looking etching of my face?
CM-U:  No. Maybe we do. I haven’t seen it.
John Chamberlain:  Well, I thought that…
HF:  Great.
John Chamberlain:  …that was fine. “Here, take this copper plate and do something.” So I looked, and there was my face.
HF:  That’s what – see, they wanted a print to go with the book; and so they handed him a copper plate instead of letting him decide what goes in, they handed him the copper plate…
John Chamberlain:  See, the stories were – see, ten, twelve years ago, I did a couple of things. And I don’t do this anymore, I mean. I used to go into restaurants and order this big meal, you know; and set it in front, da-da-da-da da-da-da-da. Order the check. Pay. Big tip. Leave. People used to chase me down the street and I wanted to  Pfffft! (punches air with fist). No. It’s just mine.  I can do what I want. I don’t do this anymore. But there is one story about doing that.
John Chamberlain:  Then there is another story about a guy who never heard that – and an American, too – who never heard that Yogi Berra had said, “You can observe a lot by just watching.”
John Chamberlain:  We went into hysterics about that. And, you know, the story ends with, his wife comes over and says, “And what’s going on over here that I’m missing?” You know.(laughter)
John Chamberlain:  So it’s a story like – and then there’s the story about a guy who’s a diver. He and I had a couple of drunks together. And he was a terrific guy. Scared the shit out of everybody who looked at him. But he was a diver, and he had the bends, and the Holland, the Dutch doctor told him, “Walk to Spain.” So when I caught up with him – well, when we met, he was already to Saint Trop – no, what’s the – La Napoule. It’s outside of Cannes – Canes – Cannes. Cannes. And he got – we had this big argument. We were real drunk, and we had this awful argument, like, he was for vertical, and I was for horizontal. And then after that story. So we had this argument because he wanted to go up and down, and I just wanted to stay on the top. Dealing with the waters [sounds like].
John Chamberlain:  So then that prompted a story, which I always liked, that I put in the book, too. Because there’s two – there are two, hipsters leaning on a rail on a steamer in the middle of the Atlantic. Nice beautiful day. Calm and everything like that. And one hipster says to the other, he says, “Hey, man, look at all that water.” And the other hipster says, “Yeah, man, and it’s only the top.”  (laughter)
John Chamberlain:  So it was along that story that he and I had this, uh, of horizontal and – ’cause he was a diver, and I was the sailor.
CM-U:  I got it.
John Chamberlain:  So, in any event, he – that was __________ [word inaudible]. So those are the kind of stories that’s in this book.
CM-U:  And when was the book published?
John Chamberlain:  Six, seven years ago. See, there’s only sixteen lines to each page.
CM-U:  Oh.
John Chamberlain:  There’s only 108 books.
HF:  Oh. Better hurry up.
CM-U:  We’d better get one.
John Chamberlain:  No, there’s plenty. There’s plenty of books. I think they sold four.(laughter)
CM-U:  Oh, well. All right. We should have.
HF:  The Menil should get one. 
CM-U:  We should have it.  Yeah, the Menil should get one.
John Chamberlain:  But they want six hundred dollars for it. See, that’s one of the drawbacks.
CM-U:  Well hey…
John Chamberlain:  I don’t know. It doesn’t seem that art dealers know much about marketing either.
CM-U:  Nuh-uh.
HF:  The Menil can afford that.  
CM-U:  I don’t see why not.
HF:  I don’t see why they don’t have one already.
John Chamberlain:  Put the…
CM-U:  Maybe they’re not being promoted.
John Chamberlain:  Well, I, see, you know…
CM-U:  Maybe we do. We may have one.
John Chamberlain:  …art doesn’t go in this country so good [sounds like]. This country is big on sports and entertainment.
CM-U:  Um-hum.
John Chamberlain:  They seem to be able to salve [sounds like] everyone through those two units. Art doesn’t work here.
CM-U:  Um-hum. 
HF:  How many pieces does the Menil own?
CM-U:  Um, I think we own about five or six.
HF:  And so most of the rest are Dia’s?
CM-U:  All the rest are Dia’s. Is that about right? I think that’s right.
John Chamberlain:  I have no idea.
CM-U:  Yeah.
HF:  They are being stored here?
CM-U:  Uh-huh.
HF:  And everything we have is stored – is out?
CM-U:  No. Not in this gallery. Between this show and the last show that you saw, when we opened, I think we’ve shown just about everything.
John Chamberlain:  So you – so Two Dark Ladies are at the other place?
CM-U:  Right.
John Chamberlain:  We have to go over to somewhere else.
CM-U:  Into the storage. They’re in storage, Two Dark Ladies.
John Chamberlain:  Okay. I know that was one that I can remember the title. Is Luftschloss still in the same condition?
CM-U:  Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Luftschloss is in good condition ’cause we worked on that one in ’87.
John Chamberlain:  Okay. So – and you don’t have…
CM-U:  We worked on Elixir in ’87. Elixir. And…
HF:  Is this – is what’s happening is what he want you – are you seeing and doing to it what you want to do? To the work? Right now?  You want to see everything, right?
John Chamberlain:  Well, while I’m here, yes.
HF:  Yeah.
CM-U:  Okay. We’ll see what we can do.
[END RECORDING]