Terry Winters

[Speakers (in order of appearance): Carol Mancusi-Ungaro, Whitney Museum of American Art; Terry Winters, Artist]
[BEGIN RECORDING]
CM-U: Today is June 4th, 2013. I'm with Terry Winters. And I'm Carol Mancusi-Ungaro. We're at the Whitney storage space looking at some of Terry's work in the collection, not all of it. 
CM-U: Let's start with Good Government.
Terry Winters: OK.
CM-U: OK. I thought we'd kind of do them chronologically.  So, '84, 1984.

CM-U: It seems to be just—I'm going to stand over here. It seems to be just oil paint everywhere and loving oil paint. So is that kind of where your training came? I mean, where did you start?
Terry Winters: Yeah, in a way, like, very classical art school education, except that there never was—I guess I was really at the point where a lot of technical issues of how to do were being phased out of art schools. 
CM-U: Right. 
Terry Winters: So I got very —
CM-U: And that was at Pratt?
Terry Winters: At Pratt and—yeah, at Pratt, but also before that, art and design high school. And it was just—I—It's something I did. I went—I took classes at Pratt and at Parsons, like, even before school. But the—So in a way, it's sort of using a basis of a art education with an interest I had about process and materials and sort of becoming, like, an amateur interest in conservation and techniques about oil painting, just sort of collecting books and looking at how things got made in a way, and wanting to push classical materials towards some other extremes or put them under different kinds of pressures of how they got utilized in the painting.
CM-U: So the training was kind of—The structure was very traditional—
Terry Winters: Yeah.
CM-U: —you know, canvas prep, all that kind of thing.
Terry Winters: Yeah.
CM-U: But then you obviously are pressing way beyond that.
Terry Winters: We're trying to push the limits of it and trying to find out more about materials and processes that weren't really part of the educational process anymore, but I felt still had a potential to be used to develop a new kind of imagery, like sort of using the technology of oil paint to push the medium to some new place.
CM-U: I sense that. I mean, I even get a feel for that in early—in this work. Canvas, you would just buy your canvas locally, stretchers locally? I mean, who were the suppliers (inaudible)?
Terry Winters: Yeah, locally, you know, David Davis, all the downtown people, I mean, buying lots of linen. I did a lot of rabbit skin gluing, my own—
CM-U: I was going to ask you about that especially—
Terry Winters: —for awhile.
CM-U: —with regard to this.
Terry Winters: I'm not—I don't remember if this one was. At a certain point, I phased that out because it's so hydroscopic and I started to run into problems with movement of a canvas. So I started to use acrylic as a primer. But I was doing all of that, mixing formaldehyde. I was really into trying to figure out how things were made and how to really utilize that.
CM-U: What were you reading? Do you remember? Was it Ralph Mayer, or—
Terry Winters: Well, Ralph Mayer, all the—everything, buying the old Doerner books. I mean, I really have a kind of library of all that early material.
CM-U: I know you have a lot of books.
Terry Winters: All that material, so, you know, trying to use processes and materials that were kind of outdated in a way to see how they could be reintroduced into the painting process. 
CM-U: Well, you know, the work shows it. You know? Your paintings don't have structural problems. You know? They show a real command of the structure. So once—
Terry Winters: But it's all intuitive, I have to say. I mean, I read all these technical books, but I don't quite—it's not as if they're—I have an intuitive sense about them.
CM-U: No, of course. You know? No, I sense that. So do you then put a ground on after the priming? Do you tend to use a colored ground or a white ground, or—
Terry Winters: You know, they all start differently, in a way. They're—
CM-U: What about something like this? Do you remember?
Terry Winters: This was probably just in an oil-based primer ground, I would—as I remember. 
CM-U: I was looking at the tacking edge and trying to—because I just see pretty much the raw linen, you know?
Terry Winters: So this was probably done by—yeah. Yeah. So it was the raw linen. Then it was probably—this one, probably rabbit skin glued, and then primed, oil primed. 
CM-U: It's kind of the feeling I had with it. One of the things that—One of the things that struck me with that is that, you know, there are areas in which the canvas itself is such a player. You know, the weave—
Terry Winters: Right.
CM-U: —of the canvas is so thin, is such a player, and then it builds up to higher impasto.
Terry Winters: Well, every element—That was the thing. Every element had to play some role in how the image was developed, and also to try to push an almost encyclopedic range of materials so that even the different canvas weaves or the different materials—I was interested in them—how the linen was different from the cotton, and how the cotton would be different from other kinds of supports and grounds, so that—It was a variety of different kinds of supports, as well as a variety of different—different mediums and oil paint. So, you know, they're oil paint, but then it's only, again, because I felt it was the most technically advanced material, in that, although a lot of them were commercially prepared, they're also modified to be (inaudible) to—
CM-U: You modified them?
Terry Winters: Yeah, through different varnishes and—
CM-U: For example?
Terry Winters: Well, mixing different varnishes or mediums and things like that.
CM-U: Mixing things together you mean?
Terry Winters: Mixing things, mixing up the medicine, yeah. Mixing up the medicine. So—
CM-U: And then would you experiment on—Were you—Did you like to make study things to experiment on, or no?
Terry Winters: No, the paint—
CM-U: No? You just went for it? Yeah.
Terry Winters: —the paintings are—the paintings are the studies. 
CM-U: And see how it—Yeah, that's—That's the way to do it. But I don't see varnishes on these?
Terry Winters: No, but I mean, like dammars inside—
CM-U: Oh, a mixture.
Terry Winters: —inside of mediums and things like that.
CM-U: To kind of make it more fluid?
Terry Winters: To make the medium more fluid, differences in surface. You know, this one might not have it. It might be from one painting to the next that there are different mediums. Like, you know, that—

Terry Winters: So that painting started to use—I was using some alkyds in that I think at that point. 
CM-U: OK.
Terry Winters: Trying to figure out how—how to get certain materials to dry faster—
CM-U: (inaudible) Field of View?
Terry Winters: Yeah, Field of View, and because a lot of the early paintings were utilizing earth colors, partially because they echoed in a kind of metaphoric way, what the subjects were, but also because they dried faster. And I was interested in how to move through more imagery more quickly so that there was a relationship to the drawings in a similar way. 
CM-U: Oh, that's interesting. So you mean the earth colors, the browns and the blacks with—were thinner or [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
Terry Winters: I think they just dry faster than the metals and mineral colors. 
CM-U: Did you ever mix up your own paints? Were you ever [overlapping voices; inaudible]?
Terry Winters: Yeah, I mean, I started doing that with egg temperas. Like, I became very interested in the way that the egg—the surface qualities of egg tempera. So I was mixing—
CM-U: Beautiful.
Terry Winters: —up lots of—separating lots of eggs. I'm really good at that (inaudible)— 
CM-U: Yeah. You get good you know, your proficiency.
Terry Winters: —separating the yolks. You get good. I didn't start good, that's for sure. But I was interested in that—in doing that and grinding pigments. And then—So—And then in the shift into the oil painting it just became clear that I couldn't grind them really as well as they were being commercially prepared. So—
CM-U: You know, in conservation school, we would have these ball grinders, mills, you know, to kind of grind up the pigment and put it in the synthetic media that we wanted to use for painting. It would take days of that kind of grinding—
Terry Winters: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
CM-U: —mechanical. You never get it (inaudible).
Terry Winters: Never.
CM-U: So it makes sense. Hmm. Well, you know, I look at this, I mean, I see—I see such an exploration of paint, from, as I say, just a thin layer of the ground right up to the impasto, an extraordinary use of brush as well. Different size brushes?
Terry Winters: Yeah. I mean, that's—You know, again, that's like the difference in the canvas and all. It was like taking these very—what?—disregarded aspects about conventional painting and trying to explore the still—the potential of it and how viable I still felt it all was. 
CM-U: Had you felt at that point, painting, people weren't addressing issues of painting?
Terry Winters: No, not that so much as the—so much of the art that I admired, which wasn't painting, were exploring issues that I was interested in, but that I still felt that there was place within painting to push that. And certainly the painters I admired were still working within that vein, but not to the extent, about classical media in the way I was.
CM-U: So for example—like what—You mean ancient artists, I mean, old masters?
Terry Winters: Well, just the whole—yeah the old masters—
CM-U: Yeah.
Terry Winters: —the whole history of paint technology and how oil paint was tied in some way to a kind of opticality of a perceptual system, that there was a confluence between the kind of atmospheric spaces that oil paint created and the way that I could see into them and read them as a viable illusionistic space. I felt that that was a kind of—That was a reality, a kind of contemporary reality that was something that still interested me and I thought that painting could somehow address—You know, so obviously there's a whole line of painters who are still pushing painting in ways like that, that I look to as a kind of, you know, signposts along the way. But it was really out of my own interest in painting itself as an activity, and then these ideas around process and material and minimalist structure, sort of putting those things together in terms of a developing a—imagery.
CM-U: And was that something that—You obviously took each of the factors. I mean, you did that, as you were saying earlier, with both the canvas and played with the grounds and then the oil paint with this full variety of expanses. Yeah. And still do that today, correct?
Terry Winters: Trying, pushing at it. 
CM-U: Well, it shows. I mean, it shows. It's really interesting. It's interesting for me to look at the variety, you know, of (inaudible). We span many years with these paintings. And this is our earliest painting, 1984, Good Government. Is there anything particular about this painting that you remember that you were technically interested in pushing out?
Terry Winters: Technically, just what you were saying about the variety of the surface, of things that were almost thin right to the primed canvas to, you know, obviously layers that were very impasto, physically developed almost in a sculptural sense. 
CM-U: Absolutely. I mean, you have a real sense of depth. And then you have a brush where, you know, you have this very dry—Yeah, lots of layering (inaudible) someone playing with the illusion. Yeah.
Terry Winters: It's fun to see. 
CM-U: I'm intrigued by how some of it is almost drippy, you know? You get the kind of dense, high impasto, and then you get—Was framing something on your mind?
Terry Winters: Framing in a compositional sense—
CM-U: Well, I assume—I know that was part of it.
Terry Winters: —or as, like, physical.
CM-U: No, I was thinking more just technically, about stretcher depth and the kind of edge treatment of the works, because it's different as we look at them.
Terry Winters: Yeah, I mean, not—In a way, I was trying not to think about it at this point too much because of the—of just seeing that—the planar surface of just the received sheet and not to think of them that much as an object. So in a way, I could see them as being framed, just because that was also a conventional way of showing them.
CM-U: So you didn't object to the idea of them having a frame?
Terry Winters: No. No. 
CM-U: You know, even as we look across the surface here, you see different reflectances that are revealing of the kind of medium, the amount of medium that you varied in putting it in the paint. Or do you feel that's more an effect of aging?
Terry Winters: I think it's the mediums. 
CM-U: How does it look to you—
Terry Winters: It looks in good shape.
CM-U: —in terms of (inaudible)? It does to me, for sure. 
Terry Winters: I'm sort of relieved.
CM-U: I mean—I mean, really, what's so impressive to me is that you have this range of paint, as we were saying, from thin to thick, which often puts a lot of stress on a  canvas in a way that you have severe cracking or you have indentations [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
Terry Winters: Yeah. 
CM-U: And you don't. And I—I think in part that may be attributable to the ground and the preparation of the canvas.
Terry Winters: And I think it's also what I was saying about having some intuitive sense about how the paint builds in an adhesive sense, like one on top of another, how the—and how those different layers of adhesive, imagery end up building towards a final image. And unless that feels quite right structurally, the image won't be correct. I don't know how to describe this—
CM-U: That's—Yeah, that is so—
Terry Winters: —but it's almost like—you know, like metallurgy or something like a blacksmith knowing when—when the metal can bend a certain way. I feel like there's that kind of idea about duration and how the sequencing of the image and the events over time build the image, and that that merger of structure and image help to build the painting and build in a kind of integrity to the way that they're—the final construction of them are. And that seems important to me of how the image is developed. That's part of the unfolding of—and the emer—of the emerging images out of that.
CM-U: That's so interesting.
Terry Winters: It's hard to describe it.
CM-U: No, no. I think that's very well put. So basically it's both a technical and aesthetic at the same time. I mean, you're saying that you—you're feeling—
Terry Winters: Yeah. Yeah.
CM-U: —the build-up and it's also—
Terry Winters: No, absolutely. It's almost like a kind of ecological evolution of the surface and an emergence of the imagery out of that process and out of that felt intuitive sense about how the surface is being constructed over time. It's like a kind—It's kind of architecture over time of the imagery.
CM-U: Yeah. So time is a big factor then. I mean, you—When you're working, you are working on several things at once, or—
Terry Winters: Well this one, not. I mean, this one was really the only painting I was working on when I did this, because I had been working on a large group of lithographs that were very time consuming, involved lots of plates and everything. And I was very consciously working on this one big painting and a group of prints. But in general, there are a number of things happening at once in the studio because of—because of that sense about time, both time in terms of it technically of me needing to wait to do something and knowing that the surface can't quite receive what I imagine the next step would be, and time, in a sense that I just need time to figure out what to do next, or I can't find my way back into the picture. And so technically, there are these different resistances that build up that can't—I can't get back in yet because I can't find a way into the painting process, a way back into the—I can't find a way back in that will allow that kind of correct building without destroying something that I feel is necessary to stay within the process of the picture. And so that all the pictures are really a consequence of how they're built in a way. 
CM-U: I'm interested in this very much because the work reveals that over time. Over time, that's the kind of thing that—that becomes apparent, that those steps have not been intuitive. And your work is showing that. So what you're describing to me is perfectly in keeping with what I see in the way they've aged.
Terry Winters: Well, that's lucky.
CM-U: It's more than luck. We know it's more than luck.
Terry Winters: That's good.
CM-U: So go a little bit back—No, I—I was looking at some of this work with David Kiehl, our print curator. And he had a lot to say. But talk about—I mean, so you're making prints and you're doing paintings. They're obviously informing each other or—
Terry Winters: Yeah. Yeah.
CM-U: Yeah. Can you talk a little bit—Should we sit down?

CM-U: So how does—how does one—I mean, how does that work in the studio? Or how does that work—
Terry Winters: What was the question?
CM-U: We're talking about—We're—You said you were making prints and lithographs and then you were [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
Terry Winters: Oh, well it's just that—You know, I started making prints right at—right at the time that I had my first show at Sonnabend, and at the same time that lots of new imagery were starting to inhabit the paintings, these sort of biologically generated kinds of images. So I saw all of these medium—media as a way to open up and introduce, to myself at least, this approach towards building—building an imagery that felt abstract, at the same time, suggestive of so many things that existed in the world. And the same interest about process and materials just gets expressed in these different media that necessarily inform each other and reflect back on each other. And it was a way for me to sort of change rhythms of working from one to the next, and to see each—You know, what Barnett Newman said, each medium is a different instrument, and so each one with a different capacity to somehow describe this territory I was just starting to investigate. And each one proposed a different challenge to me. So I was interested in how the lithography at this point, which is what I was principally focused on, dealt with so little material, really like a molecule worth of ink. So the challenge was how to make something that felt physically substantial out of so little material. And that, in a sense, threw the paintings into another kind of challenge of how to open them up in terms of scale and color and viscosity so that they could be more of what they needed to be. And that shift between those things, of course all linked through drawing in some sense, are sort of the way that I've been moving since then really, through the three, sort of three-pronged attack about opening up—opening up this territory.
CM-U: It is an opening up, but it also, because you keep—It's—Because you keep going back, it's also a structuring. One structures the other in a way, would seem to me. I mean, it is an open up and an exploration, but then it keeps—then you bring it back down to something else.
Terry Winters: Yeah, well, like I said, it's all ultimately about a similar subject. And, you know, so there are different apertures that get opened up. But they're all another view about whatever this thing is that I'm trying to paint.
CM-U: Let's look at a drawing.
Terry Winters: OK.

CM-U: This one is a year later, 1985. And, I don't know. I'm curious about the material that was actually—You were working—Because I see a variety of material in there.
Terry Winters: Yeah. Well, it's—They're charcoal, oil stick, and litho crayon on this.
CM-U: Oh, OK. So the oil stick is in the—
Terry Winters: —is the white.
CM-U: —the white. And so, again, even on this flat dimension, you have this impasto. You're still building—
Terry Winters: Yeah.
CM-U: —the texture with the oil stick.
Terry Winters: Well, the—
CM-U: And then the—Yeah?
Terry Winters: Yeah. No. Because that's—I mean, that's right—I started to draw—I started making charcoal drawings and these very physical things even before I started working on the lithographs, and then began to introduce lithographic crayon before I started printmaking. And there was some way that—I think that's part of why Bill Goldston out at ULAE suggested I do that initially, because there was such a correspondence between the way I was drawing and how they might translate lithographically. But because in the lithographs, none of that—none of this physicality of the—of the buildup of the material is actually there on the print, the drawings became necessarily more physical and more—more of a sort of sequencing of—and layering of one material on top of another, and seeing how that affected the way that the imageries developed. 
CM-U: I can see that. So where—The lithographic crayon would be—
Terry Winters: This black—All of this stuff, yeah.
CM-U: —(inaudible) all of this? And then the oil [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
Terry Winters: Like this outside stuff, that's litho crayon probably—
CM-U: Oh, I see. And [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
Terry Winters: —and that's charcoal. And then the white is the—
CM-U: —the oil stick.
Terry Winters: —oil stick.
CM-U: And was there a particular brand of oil stick that you favored? Or did you experiment?
Terry Winters: What is it—? [overlapping voices; inaudible] 
CM-U: Caran d'Ache? Is it Caran d'Ache?
Terry Winters: Caran d'Ache, they might have made some. I used a variety of them. I became a little dissatisfied with them. They never really dried properly.
CM-U: Problem.
Terry Winters: Yeah.
CM-U: Yeah. Do you still use it?
Terry Winters: No. Although what's that company—? R&F? Is that—
CM-U: I've heard, yeah.
Terry Winters: —isn't it? Yeah. Supposed to be better.
CM-U: The paper's beautiful, too. I mean, you've had [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
Terry Winters: Paper's good.
CM-U: —always had—Let's talk about paper. I know you have enormous interest in it. 
Terry Winters: Again, like the canvas, just—There's a variety of different papers, supports, and how that, you know, necessarily affects the outcome. 
CM-U: Beautiful, you know, the way that, you know, you accent the actual texture of the paper, and the way put that. So that's obviously something on your mind.
Terry Winters: Were.
CM-U: How does it look to you?
Terry Winters: It looks good. Feeling OK.
CM-U: OK.
Terry Winters: I've got a few, you know, reservations, but I'm not going to share. 
CM-U: I didn't hear that. Maybe it's better I—
Terry Winters: Yeah, for now, just—you know, they're—On the whole, they look good.

CM-U: Let's talk about Tone. It came into the collection in 2006. And I remember when it first came in, we were together in the basement at the Breuer Building. And in that light, it really—And maybe—I'm not even sure it was in the correct orientation when we saw it, either, because I was thinking about that [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
Terry Winters: Well, I think it was flat.
CM-U: —I was—Yeah, I was thinking about that.
Terry Winters: So it looked even worse. 
CM-U: Yeah, it did. But—
Terry Winters: I mean, this is still surprising, but—
CM-U: Yeah.
Terry Winters: But this stuff's not so bad, I guess.
CM-U: Well, I was thinking, you know, let's take it from the, you know, beginning again. So we have a—you know, a heavy weave linen or cotton—
Terry Winters: Linen.
CM-U: —linen. And then you've—You know, you used—You tend to use this kind of darkish—I can see where there were old staple holes, this kind of dark carc—darkish priming? Or is that come on later?
Terry Winters: You know, this came—This relates to a group of paintings that use bitumen as a ground.
CM-U: I'm sorry?
Terry Winters: Bitumen.
CM-U: OK. Yeah.
Terry Winters: There's a whole group of pictures I did using that. 
CM-U: Yeah.
Terry Winters: I became fascinated with that material. And this is one of the paintings that was part of that group that I think then sort of shifted off and didn't become part of it. And I think there's a lot of that underpainting. And that's what this thing is, is—That's kind of a residue from other pictures. Like there's a painting called Pitch Lake and Jews Pitch, Bitumen.
CM-U: I know what you're talking about.
Terry Winters: So that—All those paintings have imagery that relates to that. Maybe at some point I just shifted gears and thought it was going to go become something else. And so there are a few other paintings that relate to this in another—It's kind of a very in-between picture, between things. And I think—That's why when I first saw it, I wondered, like, oh, maybe it got all screwed up because it was—went through so many different kinds of transitions. And I wasn't that focused on how to—how to develop it properly. But I think—I do think that the—It's just a bad pigment, a bad manufacturer. It's definitely this Lefranc Bourgeois. I remember I tried—I was attracted to the idea that they made a transparent black and I didn't have to mix it myself. And I was curious how they did it. But obviously they didn't—they didn't do such a good job. Because it's—I mean, I think that's—that's what that is, no
CM-U: Yeah. That's what I—I came to when I was looking at it recently. (inaudible) we have—You know, you have a thick white underneath, you know, that you've put on and built up the form. And then I thought—I thought just that. You put in a thinner—
Terry Winters: Yeah. Yeah.
CM-U: —black, and it just—It separated.
Terry Winters: It separated.
CM-U: The drying wasn't—
Terry Winters: Yeah.
CM-U: The drying wasn't finished underneath.
Terry Winters: Right.
CM-U: Or there's something about the top that just made it separate.
Terry Winters: Right. So maybe it would have worked if I didn't—if I waited longer [overlapping voices; inaudible].
CM-U: I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
Terry Winters: But what about that?
CM-U: Well, I'm concerned about that, except that it's secure. I mean, it's—it's not going anywhere.
Terry Winters: Yeah.
CM-U: You know? And it's unusual, the way it's just—You know, it's in a thick part, but it's not the thickest part of the painting, so I—
Terry Winters: So do you think that there was, like, an impact here?
CM-U: It doesn't look like impact to me.
Terry Winters: Yeah.
CM-U: Usually impact is more circular [overlapping voices; inaudible].
Terry Winters: Usually is more like a—yeah.
CM-U: It's hard—And I'm not sure—I don't think it's right on a stretcher bar, but I haven't looked at that. So I will look more carefully to make sure. Because if it is a stretcher bar—Did you tend—I mean, obviously it's got bars across it. Maybe it's a—Usually, though, when it's a stretcher bar, it's kind of—there's signs of it all the way through. I don't know what it is. My thought about it, though, I mean, because there's so much imagery and there's so much action in the painting, your eye isn't necessarily taken—drawn to it—
Terry Winters: Yeah, I'm not—
CM-U: —except for where the white is exposed.
Terry Winters: Yeah.
CM-U: So I thought we just could in-paint along that. And I think we could disguise it.
Terry Winters: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think it's—I do think it's sort of stable. 
CM-U: It's very stable. Again, Terry, I mean, I—Yeah, I mean—I mean, yeah (inaudible). It's incredibly stable, really, given, again, the kind of texture and build-up.
Terry Winters: Yeah, I went through lots of changes, this picture.
CM-U: I can see, yeah. So it was something that was probably in the studio while you were working on the other group of paintings.
Terry Winters: Yeah. It shifted into some other pictures that deal with some of the same imagery. So it sort of fill out as a—
CM-U: So—
Terry Winters: It looks much better than I remember. 
CM-U: I think it does too. And look what it's done here.
Terry Winters: Yeah [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
CM-U: It's interesting, you know? Obviously they're different blacks [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
Terry Winters: Yeah. Yeah. No. There's—There's a lot of different blacks. 
CM-U: Yeah. And so that's when—You know, it's only one mixture of black that did that. 
Terry Winters: Maybe. I mean, it—I wish I could—
CM-U: Do you like it?
Terry Winters: I would I could say like Duchamp did, it's, you know, improved by the cracking. But I'm not sure.
CM-U: But you're not sure?
Terry Winters: But I don't—But I don't mind it actually.
CM-U: Well, we can inpaint it. You know? We can—We can especially where there are [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
Terry Winters: Really? I should just go in with a rag and just, like—
CM-U: No, we wouldn't do that.
Terry Winters: I could do it.
CM-U: That, we would not do.
Terry Winters: That seems more like—
CM-U: But we—we could go in—
Terry Winters: I don't know. But that seems like a lot to do. I don't—I almost don't mind it. It seems so much more cohesive than I remembered it.
CM-U: It—it kind of ties things together [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
Terry Winters: Yeah, I don't—I really don't mind it.
CM-U: Yeah.
Terry Winters: I'm surprised. I'm surprised, pleasantly surprised. 
CM-U: Yeah, I—I was, too. I have to admit. I mean, it—So in terms of the future, what we'll do is we will—we will tap out the light areas where there have been small little losses or abrasions due to handling.
Terry Winters: Yeah. I think that and just the cracks. (inaudible)—
CM-U: Fill it in [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
Terry Winters: Yeah. Otherwise, I wouldn't touch the other stuff.
CM-U: Good. Good, I think—That's sort of where I came to was—
Terry Winters: Yeah.
CM-U: Good. I'm so glad. I think it's a wonderful painting.
Terry Winters: You know, I'm collecting all these different paint books, I have this great book called Paint Film Defects. And it's fan—It's, like, defects on bridges and it's more industrial. But it's fantastic, cracking, like a encyclopedia of cracking, paint cracking—
CM-U: Oh, going to look at that, yeah. 
Terry Winters: [overlapping voices; inaudible] book.
CM-U: It sounds like—
Terry Winters: Good book. Have to check—check this out.
CM-U: OK. So 1989 for Tone. Then we go to Field of View, 1993.

CM-U: [overlapping voices; inaudible] 
Terry Winters: See this one is paint stick.
CM-U: Yeah, go on.
Terry Winters: There is paint stick on this one. 
CM-U: Oil stick [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
Terry Winters: The oil stick, yeah. 
CM-U: This one, I see—I mean, I'm seeing it—I've seen it in others. But in this one, I'm seeing so much of ridges, of impah—you know, paint underneath.
Terry Winters: Yeah.
CM-U: And then that—that seems to just escalate in your work as it goes forward. And then—And the—They appear as these kind of dark ridges—
Terry Winters: Of—You mean of—
CM-U: —of what seems to me an under—under layer (inaudible).
Terry Winters: Yeah. Yeah. 
CM-U: Is that right?
Terry Winters: Yeah. Because it was this push towards developing the entire surface as a—as a kind of organism in itself rather than these discrete entities across a surface where the entire surface was the entity, and—and that there was a—an attempt to describe the kind of developing space in the painting itself and tracking the—the movements of just—of articulating that space, and—and allowing the—that history to help shape the final image, so. And so there was some—Kind of remembering, like, these—Yeah, trying to—trying to have a directness between how each—each stroke was an event that had its own separate integrity and—and was able to declare its own space through the development of the picture. So I wasn't going back to try to take something out or to modulate things. Like, it was just an accumulation of these events in some way. So this was an early picture of—from moving towards a more synthetic architectural development of the paintings I think from the late ‘90s.
CM-U: So explain that a little bit maybe.
Terry Winters: I don't know. Just where the—the pictures could be less easily reduced to a certain kind of natural form where the—the source material became much more—much wider in terms of the reference materials I was using and how they got put together were—were less—were more difficult to reduce towards one particular reading. 
CM-U: And so that's what we're see—Is that what we're seeing in terms of this multiple layering and kind of reworking and back and forth as you're [overlapping voices; inaudible]?
Terry Winters: Yeah. Kind of feeling my way into what this—what the—with the—with the literal painted spaces and keeping it as a material object and also allowing for a kind of optical depth that had gotten squeezed out of so much abstraction, of how to allow that back in, in a way that didn't sacrifice the immediacy and physicality of the painting itself.
CM-U: That's definitely felt. When we were talking earlier about Good Government, you referenced this as alkyd [overlapping voices; inaudible]?
Terry Winters: Yeah, I sort of—I just—I—I think this painting has some alkyd in it, but there were a whole group of pictures that came out of this that started to use alkyd resins and synthetic resins that—to help—again, help speed up the painting process so that it could have these sequences in layering and to—to deal with a different kind of surface. Like, the finished surface was a bit more shiny in spots. This doesn't have it so much. So maybe there's less of the resin than I thought.
CM-U: I also have a feeling that—that there is a real sense of time and—and making—and making this painting because of the ridges, the drying of the paint underneath have really sharp ridges. When you go back in, you're working on pretty hardened paint.
Terry Winters: Right.
CM-U: Is that a—Is that a—Is that a result of your just taking time or intentionally wanting to have that effect?
Terry Winters: A little bit—Well, both.
CM-U: Again, that intuition?
Terry Winters: Yeah, about, you know, backing off from it in order to allow things to set literally almost like a cast that—that there's a kind of physical foundation over which other—other material can be layered. So there's—these kinds of rhythms that get developed that unfold over time that help build the picture, of what I—I see as a kind of final picture.
CM-U: I certainly sense that. And it's—And—So again, there would have been other paintings. Are there also prints going on at the same time—
Terry Winters: Yeah, yeah, and drawings [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
CM-U: —and drawings? So the three are always continually—
Terry Winters: Yeah, to different—to different degrees. And also trying to deal with each color as a different material, like, literally, of—which has different chemical and physical properties that end up trying to respond to both like kind of emotionally and physically to how they—how they end up building towards a—towards a—the resulting image. 
CM-U: Do you have favorite colors? Do you find that you—you prefer a particular red? You'll favor something over another?
Terry Winters: No, it changes. I mean, now—now moving into a whole group of paintings that I'm using lots of—It goes through—I go through phases, enthusiasms. 
CM-U: Like everything else in life. 
Terry Winters: You know? But I'm interested in the whole—in the whole range of it and the kind of chemical—chemical range of it and the history of them. I mean, a lot of the early paintings, before I started to develop some of this imagery was—were focused on specific pigments and where they came from.
CM-U: You mean where they physically came from [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
Terry Winters: Where they physically came from.
CM-U: Like, Ultramarine blue and Afghanistan that kind of thing?
Terry Winters: Yeah. Yeah. Realgar, you know, and—like—and from, we'll say the asphalt in paintings where they really came from Syria or Trinidad, in these specific lakes and how—how the manufacture of these pigments and their mineral and botanical histories are tied up, both in their meaning and—and their potential use in the pictures. And that's really how my—the move into the—this imagery came about, because I was just keeping so many notebooks about the pigments and doing drawings of crystals and the plants they came from and things like that, that in some sense, I just sort of switched polarities and put them in the center of the paintings and tried to explore what relationship those things might have towards my interest in painted self and the kinds of metaphoric, mythological resonances they seem to hold for me in some way.
CM-U: Oh, that's so interesting. I didn't know that. It's been a real interest of mine as well. I didn't know we shared this. I mean, it's so fascinating to look at someone like Cennino Cennini and try to make pigments following those early recipes. You really get a sense of the plant and the mineral that you're working with.
Terry Winters: Yeah, yeah.
CM-U: Yeah, and how he describes manipulating that, and how it does change the way it looks totally.
Terry Winters: Yeah, and just how rich they are, both, you know, literary sense and historically. But, you know, not—And again, it's, like, not in a nostalgic way, because I'm also interested in a kind—in this—these synthetic pigments and all these sort of new colors and how they have a physicality that one couldn't experience in any other way, except through making—using them in a painting, like the physical nature of that much cadmium yellow and what—what it—the kind of effect it has direct—you know, almost directly.
CM-U: So you have a very close rapport with your materials. I mean, this is definitely what I'm sensing [overlapping voices; inaudible]
Terry Winters: Well, conflicted. It's conflicted. 
CM-U: Well (inaudible) relationships, but, yeah. But—You know, but that's a—that's a real interest of yours, I mean—
Terry Winters: No, but it's—Well, that's—Well, it's—Yeah, it's a big interest. And it's—it's one of the things that, you know, painting does, you know, especially at a time when there's—we're completely surrounded by so many incorporeal images. I mean, painting has this enormous capacity to make—make things physically available in a way that—imagery physically available in other ways it's not. And that kind of mixture of material and—physical material and mental image is something that seems very kind of exciting. And—You know, and then how uncontrollable it all is, too, and how it's just a—it's—it's a good model making tool. And—yeah.
CM-U: Uncontrollable in a sense that each—it's a natural material and they're—and they differ? Or [overlapping voices; inaudible]?
Terry Winters: Yeah, just the whole paint—the painting process is a visualization technique as—is so open to contingency, and that those contingencies allow for a development of imagery that can't be designed, that's a consequence of so many—just the conditions on the ground and the choices about material and about application, and that out of—out of that process, things get seen that one couldn't have predicted that—
CM-U: That's exciting, too. Conflicted, I know, but exciting. 
Terry Winters: Yeah. Yeah.
CM-U: Can you think of any one particular instance?
Terry Winters: Well, instances all over these paintings, you know, if not overall.
CM-U: You know? I mean, it's also what you were saying about—about Tone, you know? It's aged in a way that is unexpected, but again, it's—it's looking at it again. 
Terry Winters: Yeah, yeah, not unacceptable.
CM-U: We're thrilled to have these two—well, all of these. I mean, they really are exemplary of what you're talking about. The purple's extraordinary. What kind—what color's that?
Terry Winters: I think that's—
CM-U: I don't know.
Terry Winters: Diox..?—What's it called—? Dioxene?
CM-U: I don't know. And so did you have a favorite brand? Or I have the sense from you that you're always experimenting, trying—
Terry Winters: Yeah, but there—You know, I mean, for awhile, I was into Blockx and Old Holland, and, you know, I sort of knew the beginnings of Williamsburg Paints when they were being made. Now they've gotten much—They're—they're quite good. But lots, you know, were from—They tried with lots of different—lots of different companies for different specific pigments also. Like, this—you know? There are certain—Certain manufacturers make certain things I'm fond of and—But lately, I've really just—I've been using sort of Williamsburg as the basis out of which—
CM-U: You've been using—
Terry Winters: Williamsburg paints out of—as the basis out of which I'll choose other things to fill in.
CM-U: Have you ever asked to have paint made specifically for you for a purpose?
Terry Winters: No.
CM-U: OK. So you modify it yourself [overlapping voices; inaudible]?
Terry Winters: But—yeah, I do—Yeah. Or I do it. Or I have ground stuff myself, yeah. No, I mean, I like finding the stuff. I mean, it's not as if we're making it and modifying it, using the things that are there. 
CM-U: Have you ever made pigments from actual natural materials?
Terry Winters: You mean not—the pigments themselves? Actually I did actually when I was out in New Mexico—

CM-U: I would imagine that you would. 
Terry Winters: —at The Lightning Field. I did some drawings out of some earth—earth out there actually. They're a little—a little gritty. It wasn't totally successful.
CM-U: I was once—when—In my training, I had to make pigments according to Cennino Cennini's recipes.
Terry Winters: Wow.
CM-U: And that was interesting, to say the least. I found out that ivory black has to be made from ivory. And if you buy—try to buy cheap ivory, as I tried to do, because I was a student, didn't have any money, I couldn't get it to be black. I charred it, but I couldn't get it to be black. It was always brown. And then finally I found out it was camel bone that was being sold as ivory—
Terry Winters: Oh, really?
CM-U: —because it was cheaper, and that goes brown. The only way you really get ivory, to get the black is to char ivory. Well, who could afford ivory? 
Terry Winters: Right.
CM-U: Then I found out—I was at Yale in New Haven, and then found out that all the ivory keyboards at that time was made in Ivoryton, Connecticut. And so I asked them if—I called them and sought if they had the end of the tusks that they may not have been able to use for the keys, for the keyboard, they said they had a lot of it and they'd give it to me.
Terry Winters: Wow.
CM-U: And when I charred that, most beautiful black.
Terry Winters: Wow, fantastic.
CM-U: So it happens.
Terry Winters: Yeah. 
CM-U: Let's look at this one.

CM-U: This has a variety of materials it seems to me that you—in the layering. And even though the media description is very simple, what we have. I would love to kind of just talk to you about some of what we're looking at. What do you see in it in terms of material?
Terry Winters: The kind of oil crayon, charcoal, ink.
CM-U: I see ink, too, with a brush—
Terry Winters: Yeah.
CM-U: —brush in the ink, right?
Terry Winters: Yeah. That's ink. I was also filling, I think, like marker, empty markers with ink.
CM-U: What do you mean?
Terry Winters: You know, like—like Sharpie type—You could buy them—You could buy them empty and then put your own ink in them. And I think that's what these are.
CM-U: Those little marks?
Terry Winters: Yeah [overlapping voices; inaudible].
CM-U: And so you were—What kind of ink were you—You mean you were—
Terry Winters: Just like Pelikan—
CM-U: Oh, OK.
Terry Winters: —or Higgins ink—
CM-U: Like a writing ink [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
Terry Winters: —like a writing ink.
CM-U: And you're putting them in the Sharpie, so you'd have, like a soft [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
Terry Winters: Right. Yeah, and a wider—- 
CM-U: Wider—
Terry Winters: —a wider mark, and so that I could work vertically. I think a lot of this was done vertically, and to get those bigger—bigger marks like that without having to fill up your pen or brush. 
CM-U: And the yellow fluid as well, or is that—
Terry Winters: I think that's also like a oil crayon. And it's a little bit like using the color to map these events, what I was saying in the—in the larger painting. I think—You know, this was one of the first pictures that were starting to describe this—sorts of spaces. And so I subsequently were—Over—I think there was a group of six or seven drawings this size that began to map this kind of open, deeper, abstract space that interested me by some—some of the—some of the issues that I thought that picture brought up for me that could more fluidly be and quickly be investigated across a group of drawings. Now obviously things dry faster. They're more—They're easier to develop. Not easier, but more quickly developed (inaudible). 
CM-U: I mean, that's what I was thinking as you were making the comparison. I was thinking, but in this case, you were specifically choosing materials that enabled you to work much faster.
Terry Winters: Yeah, yeah.
CM-U: Yeah.
Terry Winters: You know, and to use the ground or the paper which gives you a stability and something to work against so immediately. And that's the big difference, the sort of slipping ground in the pictures and how they're always moving around. This gave me something to work against, across a group of these six or seven drawings to—to map out how that—that ground stays constant and yet deepens.
CM-U: A different challenge, a different variable.
Terry Winters: Yeah.
CM-U: Do you work with them tacked to the wall or lower or slant? 
Terry Winters: Yeah. Both up, no, both tacked to the wall and on—on the—on the table.
CM-U: And this is a very purposefully, very white paper—
Terry Winters: Right. Right.
CM-U: —compared to some of the other. So again, you were looking for that—
Terry Winters: Right.
CM-U: —kind of ground that you could—react to. It's such a beautiful work. And there's so—such a variety of depth, too, I mean, sort of what you were talking about with the painting as well. How does it look to you? Does it look like—
Terry Winters: Looks good.
CM-U: I know. Hasn't changed in this—Yeah.
Terry Winters: No. Looks good. 
CM-U: Yeah.
Terry Winters: Yeah.
CM-U: Well obviously we—There have been absolutely no condition problems with any of these. They've held up extremely well. And then we come to this one.
Terry Winters: Now I guess I knew this—you had this.

CM-U: Yeah. This one came into the collection from the Ehrenkranzes as well.
Terry Winters: Really?
CM-U: Depth Profiling, 1999. 
Terry Winters: Really?
CM-U: Yeah. Came in, in 2006.
Terry Winters: Is that the same year that came in?
CM-U: Do you want to sit down? Are you OK standing?
Terry Winters: I'm OK standing.
CM-U: I just leaned on this. That's not a good idea. OK, so, you know, we see a lot of what we've already been talking about, the thin to the impasto, the under, the drawing under being accented by the impasto under-layers. Is this more straight medium, or do you have a mixture going on in here, too? Which do you think?
Terry Winters: I think this is—It's always a mixture. But I think it's more of a overall application. And I think at different points, it got built up—built up with this variety of reds and whites, and then taken back in a way, like back to the ground of the drawings with this—with this kind of wash of the—the gray, which is—I think it's a graphite pigment that I—Williamsburg's made some and I've ground graphite in oil to get this kind of almost edited—edited articulation of what—of the movements that were happening across the surface. 
CM-U: So it came in—I mean, like, there's a lot of color on. And then it came in to kind of set things back and articulate it [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
Terry Winters: Yeah, exactly, sort of just, like, start to—start to give it—to give it a kind of ground and a—or at least a kind of shadowed space within which this sort of graphic information could be made more legible, or for me—to me to start to see the kinds of movements that were starting to happen across the development of the whites and the reds. And it relates to a group of work that dealt with these long, horizontal bands of kind of almost musical notation, movement things. 

Terry Winters: I had done a group of stage sets for Tricia Brown where— which dealt with these kinds of imagery behind the dancers of these sort of long, choreographed forms that function as drawings behind—for set designs. And I think that these—This is one of a group of paintings that came out of that interest and sort of marking—marking the surface and using that as a kind of measure of where different kinds of graphic events can happen.
CM-U: That's so interesting that you introduce it in that way and use the word measure. So it's almost like you've got another (inaudible) painting, drawing, and printing, then in the dance and doing what you were doing with that space. You have another sense of space or medium playing with you.
Terry Winters: Yeah. And to—And as a way to activate the space of anyone who's in front of the painting and how the painting can function as a projection for the actual space of a—that it's in, which is our space. 
CM-U: I see that now. But even speaking from a, you know, purely technical point of view, I mean, there—there always is a physical space, actual physical space in your paintings because you always leave these—these wonderful areas that are—just go right down to the canvas. You know? And I see them. I mean, they're almost like breathers in a way to me. They're—they're just another—They're an early stage.
Terry Winters: Right. Well that's, you know, part of this notion about the ecology of the picture or the kind of geologic unfolding of the—of the activities that are happening across the—the time that it's—it's made. So it's kind of record of the time it's made as well as being this final image of that time.
CM-U: So that's very intentional on your part, to always [overlapping voices; inaudible]?
Terry Winters: Or—or unavoidable, malintention. 
CM-U: It's just—right, yeah, because, I mean, we've seen it.
Terry Winters: It just sort of—
CM-U: We've really seen it throughout. You can find these areas where you've done that. You know, again—again seeing the—the impasto, the ridges of the circles underneath that are so apparent here on top, being pushed back by what you were describing, the gray—
Terry Winters: Yeah. Well, it comes out of some notion that every—every mark and development of the painting is somehow part of the history of the painting and inevitably affects the way the painting is—is experienced, and accepting that as a parameter within which I develop the image, that that's just part of what I have to deal with in pushing the painting forward, of making those early, you know, probes part of whatever the finished picture is. So that's—That's a necessary part of the narrative of the painting. 
CM-U: This looks incredibly fresh to me, I mean—
Terry Winters: Yeah, this one looks—This one looks good. 
CM-U: —incredibly—
Terry Winters: This one looks good (inaudible). 
CM-U: Yeah, what year are we looking at here? This one is—
Terry Winters: —'99—
CM-U: —1999. So again, any use of varnish would have been in the medium, in the idea of slowing up or—or quickening the use of the brush, but never a coating on top.
Terry Winters: No. But I'm thinking about doing that. I've got some questions—
CM-U: You are?
Terry Winters: —to ask you about that.
CM-U: OK. We'll—Well, I—
Terry Winters: Thinking about doing that.
CM-U: I mean, really Terry, this has been—I mean, we're not finished, because I do want to talk about the notebooks. But what you have said about paint and painting is just so meaningful to me that I hope we can continue this conversation with your—with your other work as well. Because I see it as a progression. And it's clear. I mean, it's one thing to hear you talk, but you can see it.
Terry Winters: Well, that would be good.
CM-U: Yeah?
Terry Winters: That would—the case.
CM-U: Colors are amazingly bright [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
Terry Winters: Yeah, this one looks good.
CM-U: —over time.
Terry Winters: This one looks like what I'm thinking about, which is good. Is—yeah—
CM-U: You know, distance says something very interesting to that one that we're looking at.
Terry Winters: Yeah, you're not so focused on that cracking thing. I don't know. This one looks good.
CM-U: What are you thinking? It does.
Terry Winters: When we get the mic off, I'll tell you what I'm really thinking.
CM-U: Let's look at the notebook pages. OK. OK. That's all right. We have these three that came to the collection out of your last—latest—recent show.

CM-U: They, too, have all this layering and all this. So can you just talk a little bit about process with regard to them?
Terry Winters: It's a little bit what I was saying about the—the notebook, notebooks being turned into the paintings early on, that I've always been keeping these notebooks and clippings of things that have to do with either imagery that I'm just sort of curious about or attracted by or seem to inform my project in some way. And I've just been storing them for years and years. And I've had them in books. And at different points—I've never really thought of them as work. And then at one point, someone came over, who's organizing an exhibition for something else and saw them, and then called me about maybe showing them. I started to think about them as a kind of work and informing what—what it is I do or letting other people see what they are. And years ago, I guess when it was like at two thou—like two—I don't know what the earliest ones are.
CM-U: This—This is 2007.
Terry Winters: This one's 2004.

CM-U: That's '04, uh-huh.
Terry Winters: So, you know, I just—because of my interest in printing and trying to find ways, a little bit like the paint, be interested in paint itself and process, printmaking also opened up my interest in different image technologies, because so much of new image, machinery and production methods have been first introduced in printmaking, you know, in commercial printmaking, like, you know, scanners, digital readers, things like that were things I had access to through ULAE and other printing process—other printing production things I was involved in. So that's why—Like, I started printing things out on acetates, which was something I used in making prints a lot, like just using acetates or using some of these other kinds of higher tech imagery. And I was interested in how to—how to both use that in the paintings and also just as—using it as a record to keep—keep my notebook information of related material. And I just started add—putting together these notebooks, again, like you say, a lot like how I put the paintings together, by layering bits of information to make—to make this other kind of unexpected bit of information or echo some other subject matter that I was exploring, so. I've got a bunch of these.
CM-U: You do. Just before we get off of dating question—

CM-U: —I noticed that these all—the date that is in our records is Notebook, and then they have numbers, 1, 29, 74.

Terry Winters: Right.
CM-U: And then they have—The date is 2003-2011—
Terry Winters: Yeah. Although this only took 15 seconds. (inaudible) the question was, like, I never showed them.
CM-U: Right.
Terry Winters: And I know I made them over these period—Like, the first, the earliest date I could find was in the—whatever. When they got printed out was the [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
CM-U: Is that—Is that [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
Terry Winters: And it might be 2004.
CM-U: So that's when it was printed out?
Terry Winters: That's when I printed this, yeah. I printed that page—this page [overlapping voices; inaudible]—
CM-U: I see. I wondered what—I wondered what that was. OK.
Terry Winters: You know? So, I just didn't—And Matthew wanted a date for them. And I didn't—I didn't want to date them all, you know, last year when I showed them because they had been in my notebooks for so many years. But I—But I couldn't—I tried to reconstruct when I did (inaudible) preposterous. So I just decided that that—That was the year I decided I'd show them. So I just gave them that date, although some of the—Some of the pieces in there date from older than that, of how they got collected. But that just seemed like a way to quantify that period of time. And so since then, I've—I have some that are dated 2012 and 2013.
CM-U: That makes sense [overlapping voices; inaudible].
Terry Winters: So it was just a way to say, OK, now they're—is the first year they were—they were publicly exhibited and—
CM-U: It all—It also connotes process, time—
Terry Winters: Yeah, yeah, so—
CM-U: —you know, during which you did it. So there—I mean, there are multiple layers. There's kind of the notebook page, and then there's some kind of found image it seems.
Terry Winters: Right. They're all found. They're all found.
CM-U: They're all found. 
Terry Winters: And I think that's—that's also an aspect of the paintings. All the paintings come from a source material, and are then transformed through the painting process. And that that—For me, that was always like an important aspect of a place to begin, because I was really beginning in the middle by finding something to work with, rather than the blank, whether the blank canvas or my blank mind, so—so to start with something that was in the world. And so all of these are found. Like, so they're—A lot of them, you know, are found online or they're found in note—in magazines or—And they all involve either, like, a notebook page, a layer of—and then two or three layers of information. 
CM-U: But the—the printing that's on the Mylar, that's found, too?
Terry Winters: Well, it's found online and I print it.
CM-U: Then you print it? OK. That clarifies that. OK. And what kind of printer—Is it something (inaudible)?
Terry Winters: Just a digital, you know, Hewlett-Packard—
CM-U: Commercial.
Terry Winters: —commercial printer.
CM-U: I noticed without—Oh yeah, now I (inaudible). There's Scotch tape holding down some of that.
Terry Winters: Scotch tape some of it—
CM-U: Yeah, staples, too.
Terry Winters: —staples.
CM-U: Scotch tape may discolor over time. That's OK with you? That's life?
Terry Winters: That's life.
CM-U: OK. That's what I like to think about it.
Terry Winters: I've been—I've been discoloring myself.
CM-U: But, OK. Well, they're wonderful. And they're—they're complex. And they are so—I'm so interested in what you—what you just said about your coming—It's so respectful of materials and the way you say you come on them middle, in the middle.T. Winters: Well I'm interested in using them and abusing them.
CM-U: Yeah, well, that's OK. You're pushing them.
Terry Winters: Well, because, you know—I mean, the danger is that it doesn't—it sounds too much like some sort of Bauhaus idea of truth to materials. But I think that there's another way to think about torquing the technology into a place where some new kind of imagery opens up that kind of is a—I don't know. It's different from a—just a well behaved presentation of modernist ideals, where—where it's pushed to some new twisted space.
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