Lawrence Weiner

Introduction--Carol Mancusi-Ungaro, Lawrence Weiner
Weiner and Mancusi-Ungaro discuss broadly the difficulty inherent in discussing issues of materiality in the artist's work.

Concept/Nature of Work and Conservation Issues--Weiner and Mancusi-Ungaro assess the condition of, and discuss the unique conceptual nature vis-à-vis conservation of, a series of paintings from 1968, all Untitled. Weiner expresses his opinions regarding their future conservation.

Subject(s):

Acrylic paint;

Paintings (visual works);

Visual inspection;

Concept/Nature of Work and Conservation Issues--Weiner and Mancusi-Ungaro assess the condition of, and discuss the unique conceptual nature vis-à-vis conservation of, another series of paintings from the 1960s, all Untitled. Weiner expresses his opinions regarding their future conservation.

Subject(s):

Acrylic paint;

Fixative;

Gouache (paint);

House paint;

Newsprint;

Visual inspection;

Conservation Issues--Weiner reflects on the ephemeral nature of the materials that he typically chooses to employ. He and Mancusi-Ungaro discuss decisions of physicality that must be made, even when works are language-based. He also discusses his practice of designing new typefaces for his works.

Subject(s):

acid-free;

Aesthetics;

Drawings (visual works);

Glue;

Language (verbal communication);

Typefaces (type forms);

Conservation Issues--Weiner describes how his works might change, either in his care, or in the realm of the collector. He also discusses his aesthetic choices with regard to color and typefaces.

Subject(s):

Artist's intent;

Chalk;

Collectors;

Color (perceived attribute);

Crayons (drawing material);

Surface properties;

Concept/Nature of Work and Exhibition--Weiner describes his practice vis-à-vis installation and reinstallation of his work.

Subject(s):

Aesthetics;

Decision making;

Process of Creation and Conservation Issues--Weiner describes his process in replicating a misplaced work, The Stone on the table, 1960-62.

Concept/Nature of Work and Technical Specifications--Weiner expresses his preferences regarding the materials that are used, e.g., pencil, vinyl, stencil, or paint, to exhibit his text works.

Technical Specifications and Conservation Issues--Weiner describes the techniques and materials that he used to create, as well as some of the drawings' conservation issues.

Subject(s):

Ball-point pens;

Drawings (visual works);

Fading;

Replicas;

Rubber stamps;

Concept/Nature of Work and Conservation Issues--Weiner explains his philosophy regarding the ephemeral nature of material in his works. He also describes which elements are essential in the text work ONE PINT GLOSS WHITE LACQUER POURED DIRECTLY UPON THE FLOOR AND ALLOWED TO DRY.

Subject(s):

Artist's intent;

Enamel paint;

Floors (surface elements);

Replicas;

White (color);

Conservation Issues and Technical Specifications--Weiner discusses his practice of keeping art at home. He also continues to discuss the materials and techniques that he used to create drawings.

Concept/Nature of Work--Weiner reflects on the sensuality of his materials and the possibility of creating meaningful exhibitions.

Subject(s):

Artists' materials;

Installations (exhibitions);

performances (entertainment events);

Exhibition--Weiner discusses choices that he made for the installation of his work at the Whitney, as well as changes that he anticipates before the exhibition travels to MOCA.

Subject(s):

Installations (exhibitions);

Surface properties;

Concept/Nature of Work and Conservation Issues--Weiner discusses a grouping of objects, including several books, in the exhibition at the Whitney. He reflects on the life of an artwork when it is in the possession of an individual, rather than in a museum or gallery.

Subject(s):

Natural aging;

Wear;

Exhibition and Concept/Nature of Work--Weiner discusses his choices for the exhibition of a group of posters, both at the Whitney and at MOCA. He also reflects on the poster as a visual medium.

Conservation Issues and Historical Anecdote--Weiner articulates his philosophy regarding the role of the artist vis-à-vis the preservation of their work, using an anecdote about a work owned by the French government. 

[Speakers (in order of appearance): Carol Mancusi-Ungaro, Director, Artists Documentation Program, Founding Director, Center for the Technical Study of Modern Art, Harvard Art Museums, Associate Director for Conservation and Research, Whitney Museum of American Art; Lawrence Weiner, Artist]
CM-U: We're going to start with today is January 16, 2008. I am at the Whitney with Lawrence Weiner in his exhibition. I am a conservator, Carol Mancusi-Ungaro. I am interested in preserving things – physical stuff.
Lawrence Weiner: Um-hum.
CM-U: And I know, when we talk about your work, when we talk about materiality, like I wrote to you, language is material, so…
Lawrence Weiner: Yes, it is.
CM-U: So in talking about the kinds of things that maybe we can turn our mind to as kind of the more physical stuff of your work, and how one, as a conservator, should think about that…
Lawrence Weiner: I really don't know.
CM-U: …in terms of conservation.
Lawrence Weiner: I am perplexed, because the nature of the work is that it's a specific object without a specific form.
CM-U: Correct. Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: How do you preserve something that is not a specific form?
CM-U: Hmm.
Lawrence Weiner: I don't know.
CM-U: But some things have taken a physical form.
Lawrence Weiner: At some stages.
CM-U: At some stages. And those stages change. So is it a question – let's – I though we should walk and talk and look at specific…
Lawrence Weiner: Do tell…
CM-U: ..specific works.
Lawrence Weiner: Yes.

CM-U: Let's look here. Let's look at these. [Untitled, 1968, Collections of Chuck Ginnever, Jack and Nell Wendler, Julia and Robert Barry]
Lawrence Weiner: Well, this is easy. This is paintings.
CM-U: Yeah. Right.
Lawrence Weiner: You conserve paintings the way people conserve paintings.
CM-U: Are these paintings from the period? Or have these remade?
Lawrence Weiner: Oh, no, no. Everything, this is from the period.
CM-U: This is from the period? So in this…
Lawrence Weiner: Built them all by – built them all by hand. Built all the stretchers, all by hand.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: And they seem to hold up reasonably well.
CM-U: Very well. They look extraordinarily well.
Lawrence Weiner: Yes.
CM-U: And so that's – but in this case, in this physical state, this is how they should remain. This is the work.
Lawrence Weiner: Ah, since the people who own them want them to look like that, yes.
CM-U: Okay.
Lawrence Weiner: Okay?
CM-U: Okay. And should…
Lawrence Weiner: As for me, I made the paint always that it's reasonably active, so that the paint will continue to slide around a bit inside.
CM-U: What do you mean?
Lawrence Weiner: The colors, well, there's chemicals that, when you are making the paint, that are make – that are not – they are in the canvas. And as you can see, there's discolorations here and there from outside temperature and things.
CM-U: Like things like this sort of thing.
Lawrence Weiner: Like – a thing like that is all built into the painting.
CM-U: And they say it's…
Lawrence Weiner: I guess it reaches – when it's a certain point, it stops. It stops going.
CM-U: Um-hum. And it's acrylic paint?
Lawrence Weiner: Some of it is acrylic. Some of it is some other things.
CM-U: Um-hum. So…
Lawrence Weiner: I say it's acrylic 'cause I don't remember.
CM-U: Right. So at this point, you're in your studio, and you're working with the materials and all these kind of traditional materiality – physical questions…
Lawrence Weiner: Yes.
CM-U: …about material…
Lawrence Weiner: Yeah.
CM-U: …are sort of – and in terms of preserving and caring for them, those same criteria apply?

Lawrence Weiner: Yeah. Except this piece over here is an interesting thing.
CM-U: Yeah.
Lawrence Weiner: This [Untitled, 1961, Collection of Dana Ohlmeyer and Elliot Lloyd] was in the collection of another, of an artist, Elliott Lloyd; and it's been there since it was made. And it's house paint from 1961. And it's exactly the same as it was when I painted it. And it's house paint I bought on Canal Street. You know, in little…
CM-U: Those little jars?
Lawrence Weiner: …those little cans. The little cans that were left over from big runs.
CM-U: So they were cheap. And they were available.
Lawrence Weiner: Yes, they were available. And that seems to have held up all right.
CM-U: And you wouldn't – you couldn't imagine any sort of repainting of this? I mean, this is…
Lawrence Weiner: No. As a matter of fact, it was brought into the conservation section, and they were thinking of just seeing what they could do. Happily, the person who had it kept it clean. Some of the paintings that came, the ones from London and all, they were filthy in the back. They had to vacuum them.
CM-U: Right.
Lawrence Weiner: But that has nothing to do with the artist.
CM-U: Right. Correct. That's just upkeep and so on.
Lawrence Weiner: That's just upkeep.
CM-U: Yeah.
Lawrence Weiner: But this was kept clean, and it's exactly the way…
CM-U: And it looks very – it looks the same to you.
Lawrence Weiner: It looks like I've seen the black and white photographs look. I can't tell you if the – but it was mottled white. It was all the various things…
CM-U: It's wonderful.
Lawrence Weiner: …that's titanium [sounds like].
CM-U: And it definitely has a sense of aging in it. I mean, the material…
Lawrence Weiner: Yes, it's built into it, yeah.
CM-U: Yeah. And what about the others?
Lawrence Weiner: Those – that's gouache [Untitled, n.d., Collection of Kirsten Weiner]…
CM-U: Right.
Lawrence Weiner: …with plastic under all if it – you know, spray plastic.
CM-U: A varnish of some sort?
Lawrence Weiner: But some sort of – no, some sort of spray plastic fixative or something.
CM-U: Uh-huh.
Lawrence Weiner: That's gouache and ink on canvas.
CM-U: And it looks so beautiful.
Lawrence Weiner: And that's acrylic on newspaper.
CM-U: Uh-huh.

CM-U: Have you – of this body of work…
Lawrence Weiner: Yeah.
CM-U: …have you ever seen them in a way that they were damaged or treated or destroyed in a way that you felt compromised what you were trying to say?
Lawrence Weiner: No.
CM-U: You're a lucky artist.
Lawrence Weiner: No. It was built into the work. I mean, it's a pity…
CM-U: The aging was built into the work.
Lawrence Weiner: …it's a pity, yeah. It's the same as with drawings. When you get your drawings. Drawings are a means that I use to be able to figure out things. They are notes.
CM-U: Right.
Lawrence Weiner: I try. I use acid-free paper when I can, if I'm not on the road, and it's not paper from a hotel.
CM-U: Sure. Hmm.
Lawrence Weiner: I try to remember about acid-free glue. But I really don't care. I'll use lipstick if I have to.
CM-U: Hmm.
Lawrence Weiner: And my feelings, and many of the people who collect drawings of mine's feeling are, you get ten years of absolute pleasure out of something, don't complain.
CM-U: Okay. And then that's okay? And then it goes.
Lawrence Weiner: It's fine with me.
CM-U: And then it can be recreated as something else?
Lawrence Weiner: Why – and also, drawings are basically all notes for reproduction. So when they are reproduced, you don't have any kind of a problem. It's the information on the surface, and whatever little gesture that carries over that information on the surface is carried over in a reproduction and a photograph.
CM-U: So, for you…
Lawrence Weiner: For me, it's about the same.
CM-U: Uh-hum. But now there are certain decisions about the physicality of even language on a wall…
Lawrence Weiner: Yes. Yes.
CM-U: …that have to be made.
Lawrence Weiner: Yeah.
CM-U: And what are the kinds of criteria that you have for that? I mean, like, if you look at a wall, and the different types…
Lawrence Weiner: Totally emotional.
CM-U: …the color. And that's – you're making these in the site [sounds like]…
Lawrence Weiner: Emotional decision. But it's an emotional decision.
CM-U: Uh-huh.
Lawrence Weiner: The aesthetics are inherent in you.
CM-U: Right.
Lawrence Weiner: You are not going to be doing something that, you know, that goes against what you consider aesthetics…
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: …and what you consider the politics of aesthetics. But, that leaves you an enormous, enormous range. When I'm not happy with a typeface, when I'm not happy with the language, I design my own. I designed Margaret Seaworthy Gothic.
CM-U: I'm sorry?
Lawrence Weiner: I designed Margaret Seaworthy Gothic…
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: …which got away from that whole problem because I don't like Helvetica. I don't like what it stands for. Franklin Gothic, I could use. I found a thing called Offline. You'll see it turn up in the show. I just will then, but I can't tell you that they are artist's decisions. They are emotional decisions of somebody who makes art, and how they want to present it.
CM-U: That's correct. I understand.
Lawrence Weiner: They are how you dress in the morning when you go out the door.
CM-U: Right. Right. And then at a later date, you might choose another type…

Lawrence Weiner: Oh, with…
CM-U: They are always changing.
Lawrence Weiner: All of these pieces have been shown different ways.
CM-U: Right.
Lawrence Weiner: And I'm not sure yet. That's what's been holding me back a bit in California, whether I want to carry the presentation to MOCA of the way certain works were presented, or whether I want to change each one.
CM-U: Right.
Lawrence Weiner: And once I make the decision, then I'll know what I'll do.
CM-U: And do you feel this is always your decision as the artist?
Lawrence Weiner: No. When the work is sold, it's the decision of the person who acquires the work.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: They can tattoo it on their tuchus for all I care.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: As long as it doesn't change the work, and they're happy.
CM-U: Um-hum. Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: Because the point of a sculpture is for people to use it to figure out their place in the world.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: People place things in the way that they can use it. If you – you know, you don't put a compass inside a drawer unless you want not to know where you are.
CM-U: Right. In your own work over the years, and using letters and language on a wall…
Lawrence Weiner: Um-hum.
CM-U: …you must become more comfortable with certain materials, and that must be always something that you are thinking about? Uh, type…
Lawrence Weiner: I don't quite understand…
CM-U: …color, sheen of the letters?
Lawrence Weiner: Oh.
CM-U: That sort of – or is it just that moment?
Lawrence Weiner: You are dealing with a palette. I don't know if I'm more comfortable with – it's green, as well as blue, as well as red. It really is.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: I don't know what I'm more comfortable with. I know what goes against what I feel is the political message.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: A certain dignity about the work, and a certain dignity of things. But that doesn't necessarily mean it can't be done with just crayon.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: I did my whole show, my retrospective at ARC in Paris ["Sculpture: Lawrence Weiner," ARC/Musée d'Art Moderne de la Ville de Paris, June 27-September 22, 1985] with crayon and chalk.
CM-U: Um-hum. Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: And I didn't find any problem with that. The work does not really require a dinner jacket.

Lawrence Weiner: Okay. Sometimes it's nice, if you want to.
CM-U: Right.
Lawrence Weiner: But I really don't…
CM-U: If that – should that be…
Lawrence Weiner: …it's not to get away from it, it's…
Lawrence Weiner: But when you look at any of these installations, they are just thought through as much as they possibly can be. And then presented.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: I don't usually even – I'll present it to somebody who is purchasing one and say, you know, that I'll help with the installation once.
CM-U: Um-hum. Aha.
Lawrence Weiner: …and afterwards they have to make their own decisions.
CM-U: Uh-huh. Then they do that…
Lawrence Weiner: I'll help with the practical concepts if they need it, but other than that, no. I really think if the work is presented in a manner that its meaning is built into its inherent force, then it's okay.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: As I said, I didn't think there was that much of an excitement [sounds like]…
CM-U: No?
Lawrence Weiner: This piece is an interesting one because it is a rebuild…
CM-U: Yeah, come on. Let's do it [sounds like]. Okay, tell me about this [The Stone on the table, 1960-62, Stedelijk Museum, Amsterdam].
Lawrence Weiner: It was a piece that was from 1960 to '62, I guess, in the backyard.

Lawrence Weiner: It was initially a stone that I went with Michael Shamberg and picked up, which was in the breaking down part of the Brooklyn Bridge.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: And then somehow or other it was shown here and there, and it was going to go in the New Museum show for early work ["Early Work: Lynda Benglis, Joan Brown, Luis Jimenez Aranda, Gary Stephan, Lawrence Weiner," New Museum of Contemporary Art, New York, April 3-June 3, 1982]…
CM-U: Oh. Uh-huh.
Lawrence Weiner: …a long, long time ago. Lynda Benglis was in the show. I don't remember the dates, but you can check it out.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: And it was misplaced in the warehouse. It was just a stone on the table, and they couldn't find it.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: So we rebuilt it, and I went with Michael to get it out of the storeroom and recut it. But we took it from the Manhattan bridge rubble…
CM-U: So the original…
Lawrence Weiner: …by mistake. By mistake.
CM-U: By mistake.
[both voices occasionally speak at the same time; hard to distinguish between them]
Lawrence Weiner: So the original was the Brooklyn Bridge, and that's the rubble.
CM-U: So that's the memory part, right?
Lawrence Weiner: And this is now in the Stedlijk, and this is where it was since it was at the New Museum. This is the way it stays.
CM-U: Um-hum. Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: I am very happy with this, that it's at the Stedelijk.
CM-U: And natural aging? Whatever happens?
Lawrence Weiner: Oh, yeah. I built the damn thing. I built both of them.
CM-U: If it's damaged, it gets fixed, and just…
Lawrence Weiner: I don't know. There was a broken splinter here. Yes, they've fixed the splinter.
CM-U: They just fixed the splinter…
Lawrence Weiner: Which I thought was foolish. I was just ready to rip it off, and everybody said, "No." And I'm saying, "But it's just a table."
CM-U: It's just a table – yeah. Yeah.
Lawrence Weiner: Sorry.
CM-U: No, no, no. No, no, no, no, this is – no, this is central to what I do.
Lawrence Weiner: The hardest part was to reduplicate the that because I had…
CM-U: To reduplicate what?
Lawrence Weiner: The stone. Because the stone had started out at one of the – it was like the Gulley Jimson film [The Horse's Mouth, 1958]. The stone had started out very large, and it was my trying to figure out what the hell to do with it…
CM-U: Right.
Lawrence Weiner: …and then I finally realized it was about placing The Stone on the table. It wasn't about cutting it. And the table was built in a studio on Bleecker Street, and then in the backyard. With goggles, and gloves…
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: …and big stonecutting tools, until I realized that, no, I was looking for a rectangular stone. Irregular. And that was good enough.
CM-U: And that was it.
Lawrence Weiner: That was it. It's nice to have all the paint from all the bridge building __________ [phrase inaudible; both voices speaking at the same time].
CM-U: Yeah. Exactly. And there are choices here. I mean, it has a certain – it has a history in it, is what it has.
Lawrence Weiner: Yes. Well, obviously this maybe could have fallen someplace where – after it was sent off. This is an interesting thing. And it's quite sturdy. I mean, I'm not much of a carpenter, but it seems to not have fallen apart.
CM-U: It's a table.
Lawrence Weiner: It's a table.
CM-U: And that was the important concept here.
Lawrence Weiner: It didn't fall on anybody.
CM-U: Yeah. So, should the Stedelijk at some point need another table, as far as you're concerned, if it's a table…

Lawrence Weiner: I have no idea. That's the Stedelijk's problem.
CM-U: That's the Stedelijk's problem. Okay.
CM-U: Some of the lettering is placed on the wall? Physically placed on the wall?
Lawrence Weiner: Yeah. My curators – yeah…
CM-U: Some of it is stenciling? Stencil?
Lawrence Weiner: My curators asked if they could have some things painted on the wall.
CM-U: Uh-huh.
Lawrence Weiner: And because it really has a different feel…
CM-U: Right.
Lawrence Weiner: …I didn't see why not.
CM-U: Okay.
Lawrence Weiner: I find the vinyl often works, and painting on the wall works, writing with a pencil works. Stenciling – that's the original stencil [A BIT OF MATTER AND A LITTLE BIT MORE], from when I showed it at P.S. 1. It's not the original. I think I recut it.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: But it's the original stencil to make the stencil.
CM-U: Uh-huh. Okay.
Lawrence Weiner: It's an old Stenso stencil from my high school days, I think.
CM-U: Stenso. Golly, I remember those in high school.
Lawrence Weiner: High school days. I still have it.
CM-U: Um-hum? You still have it? Of course.
Lawrence Weiner: I still have it because I had to do that for the Downtown Show. At the Grey Art Center ["The Downtown Show: The New York Art Scene, 1974-1984," Grey Art Gallery, January 10-April 1, 2006].
CM-U: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Lawrence Weiner: I had – I promised I would recut it for them because the other stencil, the owner of the work didn't want to lend them the original stencil.
CM-U: Hmm. Ah, that brings up an interesting issue. But in your work, that makes perfect sense.
Lawrence Weiner: It's theirs.
CM-U: It's theirs.
Lawrence Weiner: It's their choice.
CM-U: It's theirs, and – right.
Lawrence Weiner: It's the same as Herman.
CM-U: And it doesn't matter.
Lawrence Weiner: Herman Daled asked that…
Lawrence Weiner: Hi, how are you? [speaking to gallery attendant]
Attendant: I am okay. I am part of your art museum.
Lawrence Weiner: Are you…
Attendant: The shadow…
Lawrence Weiner: Yes, you are the shadow. That's not so bad.
Attendant: Yes, it's good.
Lawrence Weiner: It adds much to it.
Attendant: Yes, visitors say, I am part of your art. It's good.
CM-U: She's protecting it. Very good. Thank you.
Lawrence Weiner: No, you see people really do take those.
CM-U: Oh, yes. I've taken them. (laughs)
Lawrence Weiner: Yeah. And Herman asked. And that's what they did.
CM-U: Was it particular that this [PEBBLES AND STRAW STREWN ON A LEVEL WITH THE SURFACE OF THE WATER] be tape, as opposed to painted? It didn't matter?
Lawrence Weiner: I thought that it would be less trouble for the Whitney if they used vinyl…
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: …and it turned out, when they were rebuilding the walls for me, one of the machines had gone across it and they had to fix part of the vinyl. It's hell to refix things from painting on the floor.
CM-U: Uh-huh.
Lawrence Weiner: If it were a permanent installation, I'd have it done with epoxy or something.
CM-U: Right. Right. So, again, it's just kind of the practical considerations on what…
Lawrence Weiner: Totally practical…
CM-U: Totally…
Lawrence Weiner: …and, again, totally emotional.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: Dependent upon how I felt at the moment.
CM-U: Um-hum.

Lawrence Weiner: And the drawings, as you can see, from staples to anything that was a necessity to make the drawing.
CM-U: So at this point there…
Lawrence Weiner: That was exciting. That drawing [AS PER THE LINES DRAWN (Galileo), 2007, Collection of the artist] was above my desk…
CM-U: Talk to me about this.
Lawrence Weiner: …in the temporary studio. And to be able to put a drawing that's been above your desk, which you had made about that, in a retrospective like that, is fantastic for me.
CM-U: Yeah. I can understand that.
Lawrence Weiner: That's why I like showing the drawings that I was doing to explain to my curators what my problems about making a retrospective were. Whereas these [Spheres of Influence, 1990, (suite of 8 drawings), Collection of Tate Modern] are really quite straightforward.
CM-U: Um-hum. But this is very much a unique piece, but not really.
Lawrence Weiner: It's a drawing, yeah.
CM-U: It's a drawing. So you see it…
Lawrence Weiner: But it could be reproduced.
CM-U: It could be reproduced __________ [phrase inaudible]. Yeah.
Lawrence Weiner: Even these pieces, which I am really happy with, they are made with ball-point pen. And that comes from one day, I believe, having coffee or a drink at Claes and Coosje's house…
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: …Claes Oldenburg's house.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: And he was laughing because I had a pen, and it exploded as usual. Everybody does on the road, in your drawing kit. He said, "I did this set of drawings with a ball-point pen," and he tossed a notebook on the table. I was just knocked out. They were beautiful. Beautiful. He's a beautiful drawer.
CM-U: Drawer. Yeah, he is.
Lawrence Weiner: They were – and I was totally knocked out. Here it was with a ball-point pen. So I went to Britain and did a set of drawings [A Question of Balance, 1981, Collection of Centre Georges Pompidou] with a ball-point pen.
CM-U: They're beautiful. They are wonderful.
Lawrence Weiner: And they held up from the Pompidou.
CM-U: Oh, well, yeah, they will.
Lawrence Weiner: Um-hum.
CM-U: I guess – you know, I guess some of the things that can happen in terms of aging is, of course, fading of colors.
Lawrence Weiner: This is rubber stamps [1 For the Money / 2 For the Show / 2 To Get Ready / 4 To Go, 1991].
CM-U: This is – sorry?
Lawrence Weiner: Rubber stamps. The rubber stamps fade.
CM-U: Ohh. Yeah. Okay. So…
Lawrence Weiner: It's the way life is.
CM-U: Just do it again.
Lawrence Weiner: Hmm. Or, just let it fade.
CM-U: Let it fade. Let it go away.
Lawrence Weiner: Yeah. Everything is not forever.
CM-U: No.
Lawrence Weiner: That was on the boat for years [Ships at Sea, n.d., Collection of Jack amp; Nell Wendler]. On my boat. And then Jack Wendler picked it up in Amsterdam, and that has been hanging in his house in Block Island, which is pretty open in its situation. And it holds up. Those are the cigarette papers from old Rizla paper.
CM-U: Oh, is that right?
Lawrence Weiner: Yeah.
CM-U: I didn't realize that. That you've then colored? Or was that…
Lawrence Weiner: I colored them [sounds like]…
CM-U: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lawrence Weiner: I notched and colored them.
CM-U: I love the – this is the varnish just from the…
Lawrence Weiner: This is a thing from children's – children had these blocks that fit into that.
CM-U: Ohh.
Lawrence Weiner: That told a little story…
CM-U: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this looks like it was some kind of copper paint at some point, maybe? Or something like that? Kind of copperish color.
Lawrence Weiner: More or less. It was probably a copper marker.
CM-U: Yeah. Uh-huh.
Lawrence Weiner: These all are rubber stamps [No title, 1990, (suite of 8 drawings), Collection of the artist].

CM-U: So there's a sense of life. Things age. They change. They go away.
Lawrence Weiner: They change. But you can't be that precious about it.
CM-U: They go away.
Lawrence Weiner: You should be careful with things if you like them.
CM-U: Right. Right.
Lawrence Weiner: But then again, it's – again, it's its meaning. Meaning can be reproduced.
CM-U: Yeah. Yeah.
Lawrence Weiner: And the skill of what they talk about, you know, being able to draw – because I can draw [sounds like] – the skill and all, that's carried across in a reproduction…
CM-U: Hmm.
Lawrence Weiner: We all – I mean, like I grew up in the South Bronx; I grew up looking at reproductions, and occasionally at the Metropolitan. Then when the Modern became more open. But it was enough to get me interested.
CM-U: Well, you've gotten us interested, that's for sure.
Lawrence Weiner: Yeah.
CM-U: It works. Yes.
Lawrence Weiner: Yeah, it works.
CM-U: Yes, it works. Indeed.
Lawrence Weiner: But you don't have to fetish-ize it.
CM-U: What about something like this [ONE PINT GLOSS WHITE LACQUER POURED DIRECTLY UPON THE FLOOR AND ALLOWED TO DRY]?
Lawrence Weiner: Well, what about it? It's white paint on the floor.
CM-U: That needs to be shiny? Needs to look that way?
Lawrence Weiner: It doesn't need to be anything. It needs to be on the floor.
CM-U: It needs to be on the floor.
Lawrence Weiner: And I can walk across it. I honestly can. See? __________ [word inaudible] See? The world hasn't come to an end.
(laughter)
CM-U: And it could be in any other material? It could be in any other thing, as long as it's on the floor?
Lawrence Weiner: It couldn't be any other color 'cause that was – I think about white enamel.
CM-U: Uh-huh.
Lawrence Weiner: And that's an idea of a white spot on the ground, as opposed to a black spot because those things are different materials.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: But other than that, it could be on any floor, anywhere.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: As I said, I might be disappointing you.
CM-U: No, you're not disappointing me.
Lawrence Weiner: It's typing...
CM-U: You're not disappointing me at all.
Lawrence Weiner: That's typing paper. They have one – they're from like sixty…
CM-U: This one [Untitled, 1963, Collection of the artist].
Lawrence Weiner: Sixty-two or something – or whatever they are. Yeah, sixty – I can't see.
CM-U: Sixty-three.
Lawrence Weiner: Sixty-three. That's typing paper. That's the paper that you get your shirts back in [Untitled, 1967, Collection of the artist].
CM-U: I tell you, I'm just astonished by really how well preserved everything is for…
Lawrence Weiner: I think…
CM-U: …and even though you're saying…
Lawrence Weiner: …that material is…
CM-U: Yeah. Material has a life of its own.
Lawrence Weiner: Yes, it does.
CM-U: And it looks its best when it does.
Lawrence Weiner: Yeah, this is all just typing paper. And the kind you get at JC Penney, probably, or, you know…

CM-U: How do you keep your art at home? How do you keep stuff that you own at home?
Lawrence Weiner: Oh, I don't. I don't like things in the studio that are finished. I think that at one point there was like I kept a small [John] Chamberlain foam piece for a while and watched it rot…
CM-U: Yeah, I know.
Lawrence Weiner: …and watched it rot.
CM-U: I know them. I know them. Yeah.
Lawrence Weiner: Kept it in my studio. But that was a very sentimental…
CM-U: Yeah.
Lawrence Weiner: But I don't like finished things in the studio. So when they're finished, they go someplace else. When I had a tiny little studio, they went into a cardboard box in the hallway.
CM-U: Away. Out of sight.
Lawrence Weiner: Out of sight.
CM-U: Away. Uh-huh. I understand.
Lawrence Weiner: Although occasionally the people that I lived with liked the stuff, so they'd have things that they like out. And, yeah, I'm not a – I'm funny about that stuff.
CM-U: Well, I'm glad I asked because I'm interested in you.
Lawrence Weiner: Yeah.
CM-U: And in that.
Lawrence Weiner: Yeah, in the studio, I don't like it…
CM-U: So I have this sense…
Lawrence Weiner: …but in the rest of the house…
CM-U: Right.
Lawrence Weiner: …there's other floors.
CM-U: Yeah.
Lawrence Weiner: That's another ballgame.
CM-U: What's that?
Lawrence Weiner: People put it up if they want it. And it can be up. Alice [Weiner, wife of the artist] used to keep her Broken Off collection up on the wall on a stairwell.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: And with the rebuilding, we don't have a stairwell, so I don't have any idea what she is going to do now.
(laughter)
CM-U: But that's Alice's problem, right?
Lawrence Weiner: That's Alice's problem.
CM-U: That's Alice's problem.
Lawrence Weiner: Exactly.
CM-U: Okay. I get the sense that, if you want to do a drawing, you want to do work, you grab what's available, and you…
Lawrence Weiner: Yeah.
CM-U: …and you do it?
Lawrence Weiner: Unless it's something I wanted to try, like, uh, this [No title, 1966, Collection of The Siegelaub Collection amp; Archives] – probably I wanted to try some very expensive gouache…
CM-U: It's beautiful. Beautiful color in that.
Lawrence Weiner: …because I was making this painting, and I was broke, and I went and found this absolutely beautiful French gouache. I think we brought it back in '63.
CM-U: Oh, it's gorgeous.
Lawrence Weiner: And it's held up…
CM-U: And it's gorgeous. Very much. Very much.
Lawrence Weiner: Yeah.
Lawrence Weiner: And this one's from the Modern [Untitled, 1965, Collection of MoMA Library]. I think it was in a – I don't really know if that's the one. Yeah, it was in an antiwar show, and a curator from the Modern had bought it.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: And then when she passed away, or when she was cleaning up her life, she gave it to the Modern.
CM-U: That's good. Yeah. That's right.
Lawrence Weiner: It was one of the first few drawings I sold for a reasonable sum of money like a hundred and twenty-five dollars. Leon Golub and I stood there and couldn't imagine we got a hundred and twenty-five dollars. But I didn't tell him it was for the antiwar movement, but a hundred and twenty-five dollars for a contemporary drawing. (laughs)
CM-U: Fantastic. Fantastic. Yeah, they look remarkably well, Lawrence, as – I mean, really. 

CM-U: I mean, they are framed. The paper is darkened on the edges.
Lawrence Weiner: That's all just gouache on regular white [sounds like] piece of paper.
CM-U: Um-hum.
CM-U: There's a clarity to the material. I mean, there's something. There's not a complexity.
Lawrence Weiner: I like materials. I like materials a lot.
CM-U: Yeah. You know, I mean…
Lawrence Weiner: I find them sensual.
CM-U: Yeah.
Lawrence Weiner: There's a sensuality involved in the whole process. And it's the same as all the work. It's about – it's very sensual. Sculpture is a sensual thing. Drawing is extremely sensual.
CM-U: Yeah.
Lawrence Weiner: I'm proud of my drawings, but I'm not a fetishist about it.
CM-U: I understand.
Lawrence Weiner: If they fade, they fade.
CM-U: Right. I understand that. But you said – I get a sense of that sensuality when I look at it.
Lawrence Weiner: I should hope.
CM-U: And I couldn't find the word I was looking for.
Lawrence Weiner: Nice word, sensuality.
CM-U: It's a very good word. I'm glad you brought it up because that's what I was trying to articulate myself when I look at the different textures and the different feel of the materials in this show.
Lawrence Weiner: Yeah.
CM-U: Even though we're not talking about physical materials.
Lawrence Weiner: Yeah, but you know, you make a public exhibition for people.
CM-U: Yeah.
Lawrence Weiner: In fact, it's a public performance. If you don't take into account that the people that are coming to see your exhibition can understand what you're doing – because of course they can; if you could do it, they could understand it – but you try the best you can to present it without any tricks…
CM-U: Right.
Lawrence Weiner: …in the most sensual manner within your concept of sensuality…
CM-U: Correct. That makes sense.
Lawrence Weiner: …that's what you do when you get an opportunity to make a show. You try to make each piece carry with it the sensuality that you thought in terms of when you were making it.
CM-U: Have you had surprises in doing shows?
Lawrence Weiner: You mean to find out what I really wanted?
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: Yeah, of course. Or it's, you know, don't wish for something, you might get it.
(laughter)
CM-U: Yes.
Lawrence Weiner: It's happened four or five times…
CM-U: I've lived long enough to know that.
Lawrence Weiner: But happily they've invented white paint.
(laughter)
Lawrence Weiner: And they could fix it.
CM-U: And you have done that? You've changed your mind…
Lawrence Weiner: Oh, many, many times.
CM-U: Put something up and then…
Lawrence Weiner: And looked at it, and realized that was a horse's ass. I didn't get it right. And had it taken down and re-changed.
CM-U: Not getting it right would have to do with the appearance of it on the wall.
Lawrence Weiner: Of the way it was – it just was sending the wrong message.
CM-U: Yeah.
Lawrence Weiner: And we do care about what messages we send.
CM-U: We do.
Lawrence Weiner: Happily.
CM-U: Yes. Intentionally.
Lawrence Weiner: Yes. That's what we're responsible for. That's what we get paid for.
CM-U: Well, you get paid for that. I get paid for preserving it.
Lawrence Weiner: Well, that's all the same thing.
CM-U: It is indeed.
Lawrence Weiner: You couldn't preserve it if somebody didn't make it.
CM-U: That's true. Or someone didn't get it. Right.

CM-U: Okay. Comments about anything on the walls here?
Lawrence Weiner: No. What would there be to comment on? I like the idea that we were able to use posters as posters.
CM-U: Um-hum. Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: I am making one change in MOCA. The yellow poster with the many-colored objects piece.
CM-U: Let's go up there.
Lawrence Weiner: That's going – the "many-colored objects" is going to be painted on the wall or vinyl.
CM-U: The same scale or larger?
Lawrence Weiner: No, no. Larger.
CM-U: Much larger.
Lawrence Weiner: Definitely. And we are going to replace the "AS LONG AS IT LASTS" stencil where the yellow thing is. So it's two separate things.
CM-U: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Lawrence Weiner: In fact, I've done that already. That's about as far as I've gone.
CM-U: And the reflective surface over there?
Lawrence Weiner: Some of them are shiny, and some of them are matte, and some of them are satin.
CM-U: Yeah, they are.
Lawrence Weiner: __________ [phrase inaudible]
CM-U: Do you tend to choose a…
Lawrence Weiner: You have shiny, and matte, and…
CM-U: I do.
Lawrence Weiner: …and satin somewhere. Do you have satin?
CM-U: That's what keeps it all alive.
Lawrence Weiner: That's the nature of life.
CM-U: Right.
Lawrence Weiner: I'm very proud of this show, by the way. But maybe I shouldn't do this on the mic. But I am very proud of the show.
CM-U: You should be proud of this show.
Lawrence Weiner: It worked, and I'm so pleased with people that worked on it [sounds like]. The staff that installed the walls, they did such a beautiful job.
CM-U: Being careful and…
Lawrence Weiner: No, no. They solved problems that I hadn't noticed, and things like that.
CM-U: Structural problems and so on, yeah.
Lawrence Weiner: Yeah. We can look at the other things…
CM-U: Okay.
Lawrence Weiner: …in the corner here…
CM-U: How are you doing? You all right?
Lawrence Weiner: Oh, I'm fine. Don't worry about me. I didn't feel very well the last couple of days, and – but you can't say anything to people. They send you e-mails saying that they're getting over their cold.

Lawrence Weiner: This was a funny one.
CM-U: Yeah, let's talk about that one.
Lawrence Weiner: I mean, there's books, which I'll be talking about this evening…
CM-U: Right.
Lawrence Weiner: …but all this other stuff, that's all just standard made, and it holds up pretty well.
CM-U: Um-hum. It does indeed.
Lawrence Weiner: And most of this stuff that's here has been used or something like that. Or people's kids have played with it, as they should. I was always impressed by my daughter when she was a little girl. See, she went to boarding school when she was like sixteen. In Vermont or something. And she took with her, folded up, a Tina Gerard drawing…
CM-U: She took a Tina Gerard. I know. Yeah.
Lawrence Weiner: …and a Sol Lewitt drawing, because Sol was her godfather. And a small Carl Andre thing. She just put them up on the wall with pushpins.
CM-U: Isn't that wonderful, though?
Lawrence Weiner: And she carried them with her until they disassembled themselves. And the people involved were not at all upset. That was what it was. It was made for somebody to be living with it. You know, I have a different attitude towards that.
CM-U: No, I don't. No, I'm interested because…
Lawrence Weiner: Not than yours, but I have a different attitude than you're supposed to.
CM-U: I know you do.
Lawrence Weiner: I don't like people when they ruin something for no reason. Makes no sense whatsoever.
CM-U: Right.
Lawrence Weiner: But when it's being used and used and used, a dog-eared book has the same information and the same classiness and the same structure as one that's pristine.
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: But you can't see it if it's pristine. Then it doesn't function as a book, does it?
CM-U: I like the sense…
Lawrence Weiner: Although the first book that I did do was – and that was due to economics, we – and that was the world's worst binding job.
CM-U: Oh, yeah.
Lawrence Weiner: Which is __________ [word inaudible]. It just falls apart.
CM-U: And what did you do?
Lawrence Weiner: Nothing. What can you do?
CM-U: What can you do?
Lawrence Weiner: We were, you know.
CM-U: So that one's apart? That one's…
Lawrence Weiner: That one's there. It's not apart. It's…
CM-U: It's not apart anymore.
Lawrence Weiner: People take it – no, the people are careful with it, but if it's used the way some of the other books are used, it, it's not going to last very long. This worked nicely. This little shelf. Yeah, this is all just stuff. It will be different in L.A. MOCA. I mean, they use the – oh, I shouldn't tell anybody. I'm not supposed to. Because I haven't talked to my curator yet.
CM-U: Okay. We'll work that out.

Lawrence Weiner: And this is about half the posters. A little less than half. And we are going to be able to do all the posters in MOCA…
CM-U: Oh, really? The whole room?
Lawrence Weiner: Because I'm building a curved wall like…
CM-U: That will be nice.
Lawrence Weiner: …__________ [word inaudible] would like. Like a carousel.
CM-U: Oh, nice.
Lawrence Weiner: Like a fairgrounds. It's a fairground wall. And that fairground wall – so the whole show is more or less outside, and then you go inside, and there's a selection from the outside because a lot of – most of the work is on posters. A lot of it is.
CM-U: So these posters are all relatively new posters? Or are these original old posters? Or you have remade them?
Lawrence Weiner: These are from – no, heavens, no.
CM-U: No?
Lawrence Weiner: They – posters carry with them their whole story. 1995, 1965…
CM-U: Um-hum. Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: I think '65 or '64, I'm not sure. '65. 1972. I mean, posters can tell a story. They carry information, but you don't have to have a little ticket or anything else on it. '73.
CM-U: And so those that are covered in Plex or Mylar are because of the owner?
Lawrence Weiner: They are all covered in Mylar because the Vancouver Art Gallery has a collection [234 Posters, n.d., Collection of Vancouver Art Gallery]…
CM-U: Okay.
Lawrence Weiner: …and they have one that's in there for scholars, and one covered in this sort of Mylar for traveling. And if you notice, they can send a crate, and the whole archive can go so that people can participate with it. Because some of these things are interesting for people __________ [phrase inaudible], and not just my design. And that one, you know, that – taking Cole Porter, "Every time we say goodbye, we die a little."
CM-U: Hmm.
Lawrence Weiner: It's for children's AIDS.
CM-U: Hmm.
Lawrence Weiner: Just the changing from "I" to a "we."
CM-U: I'm sorry?
Lawrence Weiner: Just the changing of an "I" to a "we."
CM-U: Makes all the difference.
Lawrence Weiner: Uh-huh. And these are from the seventies. And there's – some posters, I mean, this is on really lousy paper and things.
CM-U: But, you know, the color – I mean, they are in remarkably, incredibly good condition.
Lawrence Weiner: And this one __________ [phrase inaudible]…
CM-U: And how could they stay in such good condition?
Lawrence Weiner: The Vancouver Art Gallery takes very good care of them, so…
CM-U: Takes very good care of them.
Lawrence Weiner: That's a funny story because they – when Vancouver took the archive over from Nova Scotia…
CM-U: Uh-huh.
Lawrence Weiner: …because Nova Scotia didn't have the resources any longer. It was much too big, and much too many people wanting to see it. They asked me to make a poster, and this was the size they gave me. And it was like the largest poster they could conceive of.
CM-U: Uh-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: They couldn't print it in Canada. They couldn't find a press bed. And I kept saying, "Well, I'll lower it down." No, no, no. They had to ship it – which for Canadians, it's is a big deal – they had to ship it to the States for a press bed to print it.
CM-U: What – do you have any reason why they had this preconceived idea of the size?
Lawrence Weiner: That was the size they wanted.
CM-U: They just wanted it. It looks wonderful.
Lawrence Weiner: Yeah. So. And this is newsprint, or part, a kind of a newsprint.

Lawrence Weiner: Not very good paper, but it's still there.
CM-U: It still looks terrific.
Lawrence Weiner: The whole catalog was on the poster in Spanish and in English.
CM-U: Is there ever a point where you see something, and you say, "Okay, it's done now?" I mean, "Its life is over. It…" Or the physical…
Lawrence Weiner: I don't have anything to say about it.
CM-U: The physical?
Lawrence Weiner: These are things that people have collected.
CM-U: Okay.
Lawrence Weiner: My job is to make things and to get them in the world. And to make sure that somebody doesn't censor them. Okay? That's it. If they use themselves out, where you've installed something and it goes away eventually, it goes away. I had this big conversation about conservation with the French government…
CM-U: Hmm.
Lawrence Weiner: …a piece of mine [(Placé) sur un point fixe (Pris) depuis un point fixe, 1992, Jardin des Tuileries, Paris] that had been on a – a far, what is it called? – a lighthouse…
CM-U: Um-hum.
Lawrence Weiner: …for going back and forth from Dover – was moved by the authorities because they owned it. They owned it, and they were getting it into the Tuileries, which was a big deal. And I wanted it painted on the wall of the Tuileries, and they thought that's something else. A national monument…
CM-U: Right. Right.
Lawrence Weiner: …and they wanted to do it bronze or in this or this. And I said, "No. You have to paint it on the wall." We figured out some very good installers. We figured out a beautiful way of doing it with an epoxy inside the wall.
CM-U: Hmm.
Lawrence Weiner: It became a very popular piece. The wall started to collapse because it's that embankment…
(laughter)
Lawrence Weiner: …and they went mad. They wanted – I had to go over there and look at it. I had to talk to people about how to repair it. And I kept saying, "You don't have to repair it. Nobody really, you know – you can still read the piece. So part of the I is off, and the wall is coming down. It's part of its life." The Tuileries' wall collapses. It crumbles. They're not going to really fix the wall; they are going to fix the work into it.
CM-U: Hmm.
Lawrence Weiner: If they fix the wall, then have them repaint it on it. I don't mind a little decay. I mean, look, you know, __________ [phrase inaudible] says, "C'est pas mal, mais c'est pas toi." When you look in the mirror, it's not bad, but it ain't you.
CM-U: (laughing)
Lawrence Weiner: It's true. And on that note, I think that will end it [sounds like]…
CM-U: It's very true. And on that note, I think we – I thank you very much. That's really great.