CM-U: I'd like to talk to you a little bit about dust.
George Herms: Um-hum.
CM-U: And just how – as I explained yesterday, I did dust some of it. Then I stopped.
George Herms: Um-hum.
CM-U: So I'd sort of like to know what you think about it. And I've also given it a thought in regard to this piece.
George Herms: Okay. Well, my working rule of thumb was sneezing.
In other words, if you go, "A-choo! Poof!" like that, and blew it
off, rather than actually touching it, that's my dusting procedure.
CM-U: Oh.
George Herms: And anything then that lasts after that is meant to
stay there. But now as time goes on – and there are different kinds of
dust. I mean, there are some that really are gritty.
CM-U: Um-hum. That's right.
George Herms: Downtown Los Angeles smog grit, you know, is a
different thing. The only thing that I've ever enjoyed dusting with is
velvet, you know, because then you don't really – I mean, you just sort
of go over it and catch it. There is such an air of agedness about my
work that it really doesn't need dust.
CM-U: Right.
George Herms: It looks dusty even when it's been dusted. So I have no problem with things being dusted, with a mirror being cleaned.
CM-U: I think that – excuse me, go ahead.
George Herms: Because what we have – you know, the color range
that I work in looks as though there is a patina of dust on it. And so
taking the real dust off – which often, you know, you ran your finger
over the bulb [referring to lightbulb]…
CM-U: Right.
George Herms: …and you are getting more of the browns instead of the grayness of the dust.
CM-U: Right.
George Herms: See, and I would opt for the brown range, is what most of these things are.
CM-U: I think that's what I came to. I felt that, even with the
areas that I was – had cleaned – there is still a dust sense on it
__________ [phrase inaudible].
George Herms: That's right. Right.
CM-U: I like the idea. I'm bothered sometimes by airborne dust
sitting on objects because it can give the feeling of, "Oh, it's just
not cared for."
George Herms: That's right.
CM-U: And I think there's a fine line between having the beauty
of something old and worn and something that is uncared for. And I do
think you sense that. The spectator does.
George Herms: Yeah. Well, part of the question, an artist –
she's an artist now, Barbara Smith, in Pasadena was a housewife; and she
said, "How do you dust your things?" I mean, that was always, you
know, an immediate question. And I – just very carefully, you know. I
mean, that's – the nature of the dust really comes into play, and there
is, as you say, a kind of patina of neglect that most of these found
objects have already been exposed to.
CM-U: Um-hum.
George Herms: So that where it's like – and by doubling up that
neglect, are you really enhancing the piece? And many times, you know, I
stopped painting on objects at a certain point and allowed the patina
of the object itself to be – I mean, it was found, and it's the found
patina that I'm attracted to. But I used to paint extensively on
things, and I stopped doing that. But at this period, really the colors
that I am applying, I really wanted you to see, you know. So they were
part and parcel of what I was trying to project. So I think dusting
is, you know – I mean, you run into areas that are almost impossible to
dust.
CM-U: Let's bring it around now.
George Herms: Yeah.
CM-U: Is that a good angle?
George Herms: Yeah. Good for you? Okay. In other words,
crevices, you know, that fill up with dust. That's very difficult. But
also with sculpture, like, how far down into the crevice is the general
public going to see?
CM-U: Right.
George Herms: So you really have to kind of have a common sense
approach to dusting. I sometimes just a small brush go in and clean
things out.
CM-U: When I was doing this, for example [referring to gold hand], like this…
George Herms: Where do you want to start on this side? That's right…
CM-U: …I left – I don't know why.
George Herms: Because, well, the residue…
CM-U: Then other things were kind of attached.
George Herms: Yeah. The residue of spiders.
CM-U: I mean, I felt that didn't come from when it was in the museum.
George Herms: Well, it could have been part of the fibers off of
this. See, the nature of fibers is really – you know, that, from wood
to fabric to paper. I mean, this is something I've never studied, but
I've become more and more aware that that, you know, how do they – what
keeps them together, and for how long. These are issues that I have
never academically approached, but they are real issues that, after
thirty or forty years, you begin to differentiate. You know, this is
something, if I use it, it's quite temporary. And if that's all you
care about, fine. But if you want it to last, then, you know, you may
need to put a counter. You know, go against the grain with another
layer. It's probably why wood panels – you know, traditionally, in
ancient paintings, they had a linen on top of wood because you've got
two sets of fibers. One we think of as not fiber, the wood; but it
really is.