David McManaway

Introduction--Carol Mancusi-Ungaro, David McManaway

Process of Creation and Historical Anecdote--McManaway explains how he and his peers developed the concept of the "Jomo," inspired by the 1942 Hollywood film, Juke Girl.

Subject(s):

Fetish figures;

Found objects;

Motion pictures (visual work);

Play (recreation);

Concept/Nature of Work and Historical Anecdote--McManaway describes how he began to incorporate the Jomo and the Jomo Board into his studio practice.

Subject(s):

Boards (flat objects);

Found objects;

Panels (wood);

Studios (work spaces);

Technical Specifications and Process of Creation--McManaway describes how he assembled found materials to create his first Jomo Board.

Subject(s):

Assembling (additive and joining process);

Boards (flat objects);

Found objects;

Nails;

Panels (wood);

Techniques (processes);

Concept/Nature of Work--McManaway explains his decisions regarding shape, proportion, and additional elements on various Jomo Boards.

Subject(s):

Cruciform;

Golden section;

Proportion;

Religious art;

Shape (form attribute);

Wheels (components);

Process of Creation--McManaway describes his process and the amount of time involved in the development of each Jomo Board.

Subject(s):

Techniques (processes);

Time;

Historical Anecdote--Mancusi-Ungaro and McManaway trace the provenance of Jomo Board #2, including its inclusion in an important exhibition of assemblage work at the Dallas Museum for Contemporary Arts.

Historical Anecdote--Mancusi-Ungaro and McManaway discuss the role that museum director Douglas MacAgy played in the Texas art world.

Conservation Issues--Mancusi-Ungaro asks McManaway about discrepancies between Jomo Board #2 in its current state and its appearance in photographs, including one from the exhibition catalogue for "One i at a time," Southern Methodist University, Dallas, Texas, March 20-April 25, 1971.  McManaway reflects on the question of whether artists should rework their art after it has left the studio.

Subject(s):

balloons (toys);

Documentation (activity);

Found objects;

Reworking;

Visual inspection;

Conservation Issues--Mancusi-Ungaro and McManaway continue to compare Jomo Board #2 in its current state to its state in a photograph. They discuss areas that conservators at the Menil Collection perceived to be areas of loss, as well as found objects that may have been added by other people.  McManaway discusses his level of acceptance of other people adding elements to his Jomo boards.

Subject(s):

Documentation (activity);

Found objects;

Loss;

Visual inspection;

Conservation Issues--Mancusi-Ungaro and McManaway discuss a foreign piece of paper that they discovered in Jomo Board #2.  They continue to inspect the work for what McManaway might perceive to be displaced or foreign objects.

Subject(s):

Balloons (toys);

Documentation (activity);

Found objects;

Newsprint;

Rubber (material);

Visual inspection;

Conservation Issues--McManaway assesses the current condition of various elements of Jomo Board #2 and offers his opinions regarding their restoration.  He critiques the work within the context of his overall practice.

Subject(s):

Age;

Cleaning;

Restoration (process);

Visual inspection;

Concept/Nature of Work and Conservation Issues--McManaway uses a collaged element on Jomo Board #2 to illustrate his concept of a Jomo.  He continues to point out areas of loss on the board and also offers his opinions regarding their restoration.

Subject(s):

Balloons (toys);

Collage (technique);

Documentation (activity);

Restoration (process);

Visual inspection;

Concept/Nature of Work and Process of Creation--McManaway discusses his process of composition on Jomo Board surfaces.  Specifically, he discusses his use of a cruciform composition.

Subject(s):

Composition (artistic arrangement);

Cruciform;

Exhibition--McManaway discusses his preferences for installation of his Jomo Boards.

Conservation Issues--Mancusi-Ungaro describes, using voice-over narration, the follow-up restoration that McManaway undertook on Jomo Board #2 after their interview.  Included is a lengthy montage of McManaway and Jim Love working on the board.

Subject(s):

Found objects;

Restoration (process);

Reworking;

Conservation Issues--Mancusi-Ungaro continues to describe, using voice-over narration, the follow-up restoration that McManaway undertook on Jomo Board #2 after their interview.  Included is additional footage of McManaway working on the board, as well as the artist describing his processes and observations.

Subject(s):

Found objects;

Restoration (process);

Reworking;

Conservation Issues--Mancusi-Ungaro summarizes, using voice-over narration, other components of the treatment that McManaway undertook on Jomo Board #2.  Included is additional footage of McManaway and Love working on the board, as well as the artist describing his processes and observations.

Subject(s):

Found objects;

Restoration (process);

Reworking;

Conservation Issues--Mancusi-Ungaro summarizes, using voice-over narration, other components of the treatment that McManaway undertook on Jomo Board #2.  Included is additional footage of McManaway and Love working on the board, as well as the artist describing his processes and observations.

Subject(s):

Found objects;

Restoration (process);

Reworking;

Conservation Issues and Exhibition--Mancusi-Ungaro summarizes, using voice-over narration, other components of the treatment that McManaway undertook on Jomo Board #2.  Included is additional footage of McManaway working on the board, as well as the artist describing his processes and opinions of specific objects that were candidates for inclusion on the Jomo Board.  At one point, McManaway details his preferences regarding exhibition of the work.

Subject(s):

Exhibiting;

Found objects;

Restoration (process);

Reworking;

Conservation Issues--Mancusi-Ungaro summarizes, using voice-over narration, McManaway's overall treatment of Jomo Board #2.

Subject(s):

Restoration (process);

Process of Creation and Historical Anecdote--A short interview begins, in which McManaway describes the circumstances that led him to create Love Fetish, 1971, in the Menil Collection.  He describes searching for materials with some of his fellow artists and the synergy that resulted from their collaborations.

[Speakers (in order of appearance): Carol Mancusi-Ungaro, Founding Director, Artists Documentation Program and Chief Conservator, The Menil Collection; David McManaway, Artist; Jim Love, Artist]
CM-U: Today is March 5, 1992, and we are very happy to have David McManaway here to talk about his piece entitled Jomo Board #2 [1968, The Menil Collection, Houston, anonymous gift]. The piece was completed in 1968 in Dallas, and it entered the Menil Collection last year as a gift of Adolph and Bettiruth Susholtz. So I think really what we want to do is to start talking in general about the idea of the Jomo Board and how it became a part of David's work.

David McManaway: I had been doing the Jomo thing for a long time, which was just – to make this sort of short – was a private joke with another student at Arkansas.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: And we had Jomos. And I think you know the history of the word. It's…
CM-U: I do, but maybe – why don't you just…
David McManaway: Well, when I was a kid, there was a movie called Juke Girl, [1942], which had Ronald Reagan starring in it, no less. And a black actor [Willie Best] who almost always played a kind of an Uncle Tom type, a shuffler, you know, but he was a wonderful actor, and he, in that movie, was called the Jomo Man, or he came around with a little board with these little pouches dangling. And it said, "Good-luck Jomos." As a kid, I picked up on that, along with a few of the other – my friends; and we would call each other at midnight or two o'clock in the morning and say, "Wanta buy a Jomo?" And it got to be kind of a joke. Or you'd – if we were out somewhere, staying overnight, you'd wake someone and say, "Buy a Jomo." And the Jomo was just this plaything. And later on, at this point, I see the importance of that. Of play in art, you know…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …from the artist, that is. 

David McManaway: And I forgot about it then. And at school, Harold Hill, who was some kind of country genius, you know, we got to talking about that. He had seen the picture himself as a little kid and thought it was pretty strange, this black guy, in that movie, trying to sell good-luck Jomos to a bunch of jerks, you know, like Reagan and the rest of those people who were having sort of Grapes of Wrath kind of situations between the farmers, and the combines, and the unions trying to take over; and they were having these big riots. And there was Willie Best in there trying to sell them a Jomo. So we started joking around with that. And before long, it turned into a little object that you could hold in your hand; and, if you offer your hand out like this, most people will do that. And you drop it into the hand, and they would instantly recognize __________ [word inaudible], or something akin to that. Or they thought they did. And look at it. 

David McManaway: In other words, that was the kind of object it was. That's what we declared to be a Jomo. And they'd finally stop and look at you and say, "Well, what is that?" And you'd say, "It's a Jomo." And we figured we'd sold them a Jomo. But just a little private fun.
David McManaway: Well, because it became a small object, the objects began to be enhanced. They began to be put in boxes. They began to be wrapped and tied, and I, I can't tell you. We did everything we could think of, and over here on the side, painting away like real serious artists, you know. And not too bad at it, either. Harold was plenty good. And I got to where I could do painting pretty well at one point. But that was the beginning of the idea, you might say. Turning into an object. And at some point, it was as if something that I would see, if the Jomo expanded, what I saw was what I got, which was up in here somewhere (points at head); and it was either pick it up or leave it. And at some point, very early on, it was, anything that hits you that way, get it. Instead of saying, "Ah, I'm working on something. I wonder if that'll work?"
David McManaway: Well, there's no way to know that.

David McManaway: So I took to getting the things and sticking them in this studio now. And to bring you up to date on that, I am having my studio expanded because I've run out of room. You know, my studio looks like this board. And ninety-nine percent of the things laying around – Jim's studio, you know – (laughs) he'll never use ninety-nine percent of that stuff, but it's got to be there, see. And the object has become like that for me, regardless of what it is. And I'm not on a search for reality nor any of those things. I think the object is what it is, and when you put them together, something happens. And maybe something else happens.
David McManaway: In the past couple of years – this is current right now about these things – listen, when I found that bear, it was a V-day, you know. I start something with – I'm not sure how it starts, but, again, it's all visual. I'll guarantee that.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: There's no philosophy here. You can make a nice one out of it after it's made, but I believe the artist has to make something. You know, I'm old school. And I will see just as simple as this little thing with the head attached to a shaving brush, and in that box with the word "Yes." 

and I say, "That's it." And I put it on here. Oh, I should say, when I was getting a lot of this stuff and making little things – and Harold would come visiting, and we'd always swap with each other – and oftentimes we'd stand with an object behind our backs…
CM-U: Uh-huh.
David McManaway: …on this exchange, and go, "One, two, three," and hold it out. And on several occasions, it was the same object. So we had a communion there that was pretty special in some way.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: It would be nice to be able to say it's the art process.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: You know, why not? That can explain a lot if you understand it. I found, not this, but some fence boards out in the back. In my backyard. I mean, they appeared, you know. But we were living in a rented apartment, and there had been an old wooden fence, and the landlord had it torn down, and those boards were stacked out there. And I looked at them, and they were beautiful, you know, weathered…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …that sort of thing. Which obviously I like a lot. 

David McManaway: And I thought, "I'm going to get about…" This is really dumb sounding. It's like Mickey Rooney and Judy Garland, you know. "My daddy's got a barn." "And mine has some lights." And they say, "Well, let's do a play." "Okay." And the next thing you know, it's on Broadway. See. And that's what this story sounds like.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: So I got the boards, and I thought, "I'll put those boards up on my wall, almost as a bulletin board; but I'll have it for a place to put these things that I find and collect, and maybe sometimes I'll use one to make somebody a little Christmas present. Or whatever. Or Harold, or whatever." No, I had made a couple of other things that were sort of serious Jomo, and – God! Got a long ways to go here.
CM-U: Well…
David McManaway: I'll have to shorten this up.

David McManaway: Anyway, I put the boards up on the wall in my studio; and I put – like these right here have a couple of – well, let's see. How did this one get down? Anyway, they had a couple of 2x4s, and the boards – I put those on the wall, nailed the boards this way…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …vertically. Horizontally.
CM-U: Uh-huh.
David McManaway: And when I had it done, I had a wooden board on my wall that was actually bigger than this. And I had four, five, or six things right there. And so I found a way to put them on the board. And as that was happening, I thought – this is really bad – but I thought, "I'll bet I can make something out of this." God damn! But that's really just that simple. So I spent six months on that first board, which got destroyed later.
CM-U: So this was the Jomo Board No. 1?
David McManaway: This is No. 2 (points to Jomo Board #2, mounted on wall).
CM-U: This is No. 2, but then the one you were just discussing is No. 1.
David McManaway: Yeah. It got destroyed, but…
CM-U: It was destroyed.
David McManaway: Somebody jumped up in the air and landed in it…
CM-U: Hmm.
David McManaway: …and knocked it over. And that was the end of it. 

David McManaway: But even that, I threw a lot of that stuff out. Because I wasn't seriously bent on this yet.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: And the little kids in the neighborhood, who knew stuff I was doing, kept finding these old Jomos and bringing them back to me, you know. (laughter)
David McManaway: And that, so help me…
CM-U: You need another one [sounds like].
David McManaway: So there was that board up there. And I, because of being – you know, doing my homework on painting and drawing and design and what have you, I had – I took that initial phase and tried for six months, maybe longer, to start with a border or some unifying theme…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …get a bunch of bottle caps, maybe, and – whatever. And I couldn't even get close. 

David McManaway: And so I abandoned that idea, and I thought at that point, "Oh, well, I'll just go ahead and put the objects on it just like I intended to." So I got a nail, and I nailed something on. And I went to get the others ones, things that I could nail on fortunately at that moment. And I was going to nail that on, but I moved it a little to the left, see, and put it there. And I thought, "Well, hell, that's the way to do this. I'll just keep putting these things on there, and when it's filled up, it's finished." And I've never changed that except there are a lot more – I think there are probably a lot more ideas – or visual ideas – and concepts that have crept into it. I can point them out.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: But that still doesn't make any difference. The whole thing – I used to try to explain it to some degree by calling it a gestalt…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …where you get the sum of the parts is – how does it go? The whole is…
CM-U: Greater than the sum of its parts.
David McManaway: …greater than the sum of the parts. And that's the way I feel about these things.
CM-U: Um-hum.

CM-U: What about the shape and the – I mean, it's not just the board that you put on a wall. I mean, you've added other images and…
David McManaway: Well, that was – yeah. That was just an urge for a long time with the things. I still like it. Any kind of a little structure that, if it could go on wheels, we liked the idea. Harold and I, both. And, you know, in some antique store, when you'd see those little Indian brass elephants…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …on a platform on wheels, I loved them. So this one got wheels.
CM-U: Was Jomo Board 1 on wheels also.
David McManaway: No. This is the only one.
CM-U: It's just the board [sounds like]. This is the only one.
David McManaway: Just as well, too, I think. Now they are just big rectangular things. They have to be that shape because – no, I've made one other. And I've made a couple of long tall ones [e.g., Bouquet with Rose, 1982, The Menil Collection, Houston, gift of William J. Hill].
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: But I've made one in a kind of a modified cross shape. I was always sort of – dare I say – hung up on the cross.

CM-U: You can say it.
David McManaway: I just did.
CM-U: (laughs) I think I've seen an illustration of that…
David McManaway: Yeah. And I think that was one of the kind of major pieces.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: And what happened to that, I just loved the shape of the cross…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …and I did a pencil design of it, which I based on the Greek golden mean, the proportion…
CM-U: Uh-huh.
David McManaway: …so that cross has corners cut out of that golden rectangle.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: Like that. And I liked the shape a lot. You know, you are supposed to like that shape. So I did. But between the golden rectangle, and then making it into a cross…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …and what happened there was, I had several things that were definitely religious, like an old Mexican icon, a partial figure of – you know, how they'd have them on their altar pieces of Christ…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …and I started putting those things on, and I thought – well, I've done a few more like that with kind of a theme. So anything or everything that was religious, that's what I let take over on that board. And almost everything on there, for me, had some significance, and some aspect of some religion somewhere, you know.
CM-U: Um-hum. Would that be true of a piece as early as this one, too?
David McManaway: No, this was more – possibly more of a receptacle.

David McManaway: But these things have to grow, you know. One thing leads to another.
CM-U: And the relationship of them, too?
David McManaway: In some ways, yeah. But I still – a lot of times, I try to solve an area…
CM-U: I'm sorry? Try to…
David McManaway: I try to solve an area. When I have, maybe, a little scheme like this that I like a whole lot…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …well, what do you put here? Or here? Or here?
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: And I can't get it
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: So that's why these things take – now, this one I'm just about to finish is at least three years.
CM-U: Hmm.
David McManaway: And so at times I just fall back, and I say, "Well, this is going to be on there," and I'll just put it there. And it always works.
CM-U: About – do you remember about how long this project was? This one?
David McManaway: This one, I don't think was too long. I'd say – I'm guessing, a year.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: But then each one has taken longer and longer, and this last one is, I say three years, and Norma or somebody else will say four. Is that right? Four? Hmm. I can't work like I used to either.
CM-U: Nobody can.
David McManaway: And I don't want to, ever again, for that matter [sounds like].
CM-U: Exactly! (laughs)
David McManaway: Boy.

CM-U: There are certain – well, let me just finish what happened to the piece then.
David McManaway: Yeah.
CM-U: I mean, then, you owned it, and sold it privately, then, after…
David McManaway: This?
CM-U: Yeah. You sold this. Did this go directly to Bettiruth and Adolph or __________ [phrase inaudible]?
David McManaway: I wonder how that happened, now that I think about it? Do you remember? They saw it. That had to be.
Jim Love: I don't know where they saw it.
CM-U: Maybe – was it – would it have been at the Atelier Chapman [Dallas, Texas] or not? At that period?
David McManaway: This one. It could have been. No, no, this was in – didn't [Douglas] MacAgy stick in that, uh, Assemblage show ["The Art of Assemblage," Dallas Museum for Contemporary Arts, January 9-February 11, 1962]?
CM-U: Yes. I think…
David McManaway: I think so. Yeah. The Modern. William Seitz did "The Art of Assemblage"…
CM-U: Right. Art of Assemblage. Uh-huh.
David McManaway: …and it – because, I think because Douglas was in Dallas, they got it…
CM-U: Right.
David McManaway: …in the little contemporary museum. And it simply wasn't big enough to hold all the objects anyway, but MacAgy wrote to Seitz and said, "I've got three or four people here…" Or may even – Jim [Love] was one…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …and Charlie Williams, and Roy Fridge, and me.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: The museum had just gotten a hall that was probably a hundred and fifty feet in length, and maybe forty or forty-five feet wide. Or, not – is that the size of a football field? No. No.
CM-U: Douglas MacAgy was the first director of the…
David McManaway: At that…
CM-U: …of that – was it a new institution?
David McManaway: The first officially hired, yeah. They had been a little loose organization trying to get something going. And they finally put some money together, I assume, and hired him.

CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: And it was a very good thing for all of us 'cause he was a real inspiration. He was just very good at that. You know, he was a real art person.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: So, for example, in my terms, in being included in a show like that. And then when Seitz came, he told Douglas, he said, "I wish you would have told me about these guys 'cause I would have included them. I didn't know there was stuff going on like this out in the provinces." He didn't quite say that, but that's what he meant.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: And he was right. But this long room, Douglas, was always kind of – did kind of interesting installations. We painted it and papered it black, so everything in it was lit with a spotlight. And down at the end, a platform was built – black. This board was sitting right up in the middle of it with a big spotlight on it, and you could stand all the way down – oh, way down there, see – and look at it. And I was thrilled, see.
CM-U: Oh, yeah.
David McManaway: And it also helped a few years later, when I decided I was going to stop painting and do this stuff – I couldn't leave it alone…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …and it gave me kind of a legitimacy. Because I – you know, I would look at the – I still do, I think – "What the hell's going on here?" you know.

CM-U: Before we get off of the Dallas Contemporary Arts Museum, sort of – how, what was the interaction with MacAgy? __________ [word inaudible] he did exhibitions of artists who were living in the area?
David McManaway: He always included the artists he met, and wanted to. And he would do these other things that were very sometimes philosophical, and sometimes – well, he had a dozen or so – how many – the Op artists, when they first hit.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: Must have had thirty or forty pieces borrowed out of New York. And he did a show of them.
CM-U: And that incorporated work from the area as well [sounds like]?
David McManaway: Yeah, once in a while. Or he would – I had a three man there one time.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: But also, at the time, I was floundering, and I walked in to meet him just to ask him for a job. I had been working in a store, and I was getting sick. And Norma [McManaway] saw his picture in the paper and said, "Go talk to him." And I said, "But he's a museum director." And I wasn't going to do that. And anyway it worked out that I could. And when I went in his office, you know, I'll never forget this.

David McManaway: Here is this dapper little man looking a bit like a childish David Niven or something, you know, with this pipe. And we introduced, and I was a very – shy about it all. And he sat me down on the couch and asked me some questions about what I'd been doing, and what I was, and this, that, and the other. And so I gave him a short history of going to the University and all of that. And mentioned that I had done installations for their gallery as my job to make extra money.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: For maybe four or five years. Unpacked crates and so on. Just in relating all this. So I said, "What I really wanted to talk to you about was…"

David McManaway: He thought maybe I was going to bring slides to show him, you know.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: Which a lot of people did. And I said, "I need a little job, and I would prefer it to be part time so I could have time in the studio, and so that…" That's easy to understand. And he said – he looked at me, and we talked a little more, and he said, "You say you did installation for four or five years?" And I said, "Yes." And he said, "Can you come back tonight?" And I said, "What?" (laughs) You know, just like that. He said, "We're – our first show – will open the Museum is a Picasso show, and we'll be starting the installation tonight. I figure it will take a week. And you can work a week. You'll be paid thus and so. And then you'll have the time in between the show to be in your studio."
CM-U: Hmm.
David McManaway: "Would you like to do that?" And I said, "Yes." (laughs) And that was that.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: And I didn't really know – at the moment, I was flabbergasted. But I started out, and he came up alongside me and kind of put his hand on my shoulder, and he said, "I never hire anyone but artists." So that was a start with him, and we all very quickly decided this was one good guy, you know.
CM-U: Um-hum.

David McManaway: Roy – he went to look at Roy's work. These little wooden carvings that he used to do.
CM-U: Roy Fridge?
David McManaway: Yeah. And this was one of the really first things. And turned to Roy, just like he did to me. He said, "Would you mind displaying these as part of a show in the Museum?" And of course Roy said about like – I am sure – about like I did, "Oh, well, yeah." You know. (laughs) And he turned to this one little piece that had been in Roy's studio for six months, and had gathered cobwebs. And Douglas said, "Do you suppose you could get that piece over and in place, keeping the cobwebs on the piece, see?" And Roy said, "I think I might can manage that." And we talked about that within the hour, and we said, "God, this is one hell of a guy!" You know. To be that thoughtful about showing something, you know.
CM-U: Yeah.
David McManaway: So he was a real inspiration in those years, and probably for me, just at about the time I needed that, you know. I wish I had one now.

CM-U: In this "One at a time" – "One i at a time" – there is a photo of this Jomo Board #2, and there are certain discrepancies in the photograph from the work as it is today. And so I thought I would point some of those out to you and see – like that, for example, is not in the photograph.
David McManaway: I was wondering about that. (laughter)
CM-U: It's interesting that your eye went to that.
David McManaway: That's probably a Bettiruth kid that stuck that in there.
CM-U: Well, that's what I'm wondering. If some of these might…
David McManaway: I'd bet on it. Sure. I don't think that was on there either (referring to a small toy bear on the board). "Junior Yeoman?"
CM-U: Well – well, there does seem to be a little tag hanging from the bear.
David McManaway: Okay.
CM-U: So that might have been there. But we don't see the gun. We also…
David McManaway: Something missing there.
CM-U: Yes. Here. Yes.
David McManaway: I don't think…
CM-U: I think this pig belonged up here. Again, based upon this photograph.
David McManaway: Oh.
CM-U: There we go. We think this pig – how about… (holds toy pig up to board)
David McManaway: Ah, that sounds right.
CM-U: …something in here. Does that seem right?
David McManaway: Yeah. Yes, indeed. Sure.
CM-U: Except we don't see a nail hole that would have held this on.
David McManaway: Well, I'm – see, at this time, I was putting these together; and I didn't know they'd end up somewhere twenty or thirty years later…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …and I just would put them together just till they got – and I've noticed a lot of these things are one little nail. 

David McManaway: And I probably just stuck that pig in there. It's possible that I put him in there…
CM-U: Yeah. We think he – he seems to – or, there is a pig behind that little figurine. Just above "yes."
David McManaway: Yeah. I think that's him.
CM-U: Yeah. Okay. Well…
David McManaway: But I probably didn't nail him on 'cause this little figure would hold it in place.
CM-U: Um-hum. See if you can wedge him back in there.
David McManaway: Okay. I think I can. Damn pigs. There he goes. Yeah. Now see, that becomes firm. So I probably was happy with that at this time.
CM-U: Okay, then. There was something else in here, there was.
David McManaway: Yeah.
CM-U: The photograph is very indistinct.

David McManaway: Do you know what was in – let me see…
CM-U: What do you think might have been there?
David McManaway: It was something I think I probably never liked.
CM-U: Looks like some…
David McManaway: Oh! Gosh. Well, how do you feel about, if and when I find the right thing to replace that…
CM-U: I think...
David McManaway: …to do that, or what?
CM-U: Um, I think when one part is missing, that would be appropriate, I do. We generally don't condone reworking, because it can lead to another piece of course. I mean, you understand that. An artist understands that better than anyone else. But I think in one – I think that would probably make sense to put something there, to rework one area…
David McManaway: Yeah, maybe.
CM-U: …because there's something missing.
David McManaway: Well, do a little a little bit of repair, like the match at the top?
CM-U: Well, that's another thing we need – I mean, I think we can do that.
David McManaway: You can do that.
CM-U: I mean, that's just a question of reinforcing…
David McManaway: Yeah.
CM-U: …the match at the top.
David McManaway: You probably can do it better than I can, actually.
CM-U: We do it a lot. (laughs)
David McManaway: I know that, I know.
CM-U: We spend a lot of time doing those things.
David McManaway: And I – frankly, if you would do it, I'd be obliged. (laughs)
CM-U: Well, usually our technique or our method is to speak to the artist, to do the best we can, and then have you look at it again the next time you're here and see what you think.

David McManaway: Well I – yeah, there are a few places where I would have a tendency to want to add something now.
CM-U: Well there are some things missing, we think.
David McManaway: But I mean…
CM-U: Like here. We think – do you think there could have been – isn't this, Margaret [last name unknown], where you found the little blue…
Woman: Uh, yes, I think it might be balloon fragments [sounds like].
David McManaway: Yeah, a balloon, yeah…
CM-U: You think it was a balloon there?
David McManaway: The balloons tend to dissipate.
CM-U: AC, you're not going to be able to get this, but there are just little fragments…
David McManaway: (laughs) Well, that's – I kind of like that! [both voices (Mancusi-Ungaro and woman off-camera) speaking at the same time; cannot distinguish]
David McManaway: Well…
CM-U: And we're wondering if maybe the blue one was there.
David McManaway: Oh, I'm sure that's right. I can tell from the – see above the nail? And I used to do that – I would nail balloons…
CM-U: You would nail a balloon…
David McManaway: For God sakes, it's ridiculous to nail a balloon on something.
CM-U: Huh, here's another one. But this one was glued on – this was glued onto a square.
David McManaway: Ooh.
CM-U: Where did we find that, Margaret?
Woman: I found that, uh, just about in the center – do you see the arm? __________ [phrase inaudible]. Yes, to the side of that __________ [phrase inaudible].

CM-U: Right here?
Woman: Up a little bit. Right there.
CM-U: Right in there?
David McManaway: Uh, that's possible. This I really don't remember, but…
CM-U: Oh yeah, look, there's green up – oh no, yeah – there's green up there, so maybe this was turned this way.
Woman: I thought that it was attached to the wall __________ [phrase inaudible].
CM-U: Attached to the wall with paper? Yeah.
David McManaway: Whoa, God, I'm stepping on myself here.
CM-U: This may come from here. AC Conrad: Carol, will you please hold it up? It's completely – yeah.
CM-U: (holds green balloon up to work) This may come from here. Would the – can you see it in the photo?
David McManaway: I'm not sure. Oh, I know. Yeah. That's where it was.
CM-U: It – where?
David McManaway: It was probably under the paper…
CM-U: Uh-huh.
David McManaway: And there was some message on there.
CM-U: Could this have been on there?
David McManaway: Yeah. I think so.
CM-U: One hundred percent combed [sounds like] cotton?
David McManaway: No. Oh no. I don't know what that is. (laughs) "Made right in the USA."
CM-U: It could have been glued on there.
David McManaway: No, I don't think so, see?
CM-U: No? Okay.
David McManaway: But, uh, gosh, I cannot tell you that, on that one.
CM-U: Okay, we also had a feeling – if you look in the photo – that there was something glued here (points at area in center of work).
David McManaway: That wouldn't surprise me either, yeah. 

David McManaway: See, I think, and it's happened to one or two other boards of mine, where little kids have been around. They end up – things end up in their pockets or something.
CM-U: Well, this we don't see anywhere. [referring to a small toy monkey head]
David McManaway: Now, I thought that was a little funny. I wouldn't have put him in there like that, either. But maybe he could go somewhere.
CM-U: But maybe this is __________ [phrase inaudible].
David McManaway: Well, the addition – see, now, back in the earlier days of the Jomo, the addition of something, if it hit just so, by another confederate, you might say…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …was acceptable.
CM-U: Huh. Well, we would like to know what you think about this, David. Is this – I mean, if we're thinking this is Bettiruth's child with the gun…
David McManaway: Yeah. I wouldn't – that's not mine.
CM-U: Yeah.
David McManaway: And I'd veto it, I think, actually.
CM-U: Okay. Okay.
David McManaway: If you want to add something like that, I've got a better one anyway, see.
CM-U: Well, you know, it doesn't – no, it's up to you. It's not us.
David McManaway: But I'll take him.
CM-U: You'll take him? Well, okay. Why don't you.
David McManaway: I don't… (laughter)
CM-U: You __________ [phrase inaudible]. You __________ [word inaudible] something else.
David McManaway: No. Keep him around. He might bring you luck.
CM-U: It comes in his __________ [phrase inaudible]. Oh, I hope it does! And so we would take this out, too? [referring to toy gun] Yes? I mean, is that your – what do you think?
David McManaway: I've got a better one at home, too, anyway. No, this – I wouldn't have gotten this gun either. [attempts to dislodge toy gun from board] God, the kids were pretty good at it. Bull's eye.
CM-U: And this guy, I think, is straight __________ [phrase inaudible]…
David McManaway: But I have put things like that on. Yeah, he's pretty good. You go to a flea market now, and you have to give fifty dollars for something like that.
CM-U: I know it.
David McManaway: Reaganomics. I don't think he was that way either. I'll bet he was standing.
CM-U: There is a picture of him in there.
David McManaway: Yeah, he's standing.
CM-U: He is standing up straight?
David McManaway: Um-hum.
CM-U: Okay.

CM-U: Another big discrepancy is this. [referring to a rolled-up piece of paper wedged into a space on the board]
David McManaway: Yeah, I don't know – what?
CM-U: There's something written about Jomo on that.
David McManaway: Yeah. That wouldn't have been on there.
CM-U: No? Should we take it and read it?
David McManaway: I think so. God. Now, see, that's blocking…
CM-U: Oh, it's blocking the clothespin.
David McManaway: Yeah. Oh, well. [reading from paper] "Jomo dog." Oh.
CM-U: Jomo dog?
David McManaway: That's what it is.
CM-U: [reading from paper] "Jomo dog. Artistic, well designed, to be rolled and inserted into Jomo Board." Is that your handwriting?
David McManaway: I must have given that to – I probably – that's a little conceptual thing, isn't it? I probably gave that to Bettiruth, or mailed it…
CM-U: And then that's where she…
David McManaway: …and she stuck it there.
CM-U: All right.
David McManaway: So that's okay. Or…
CM-U: All right.
David McManaway: Well, maybe we could find a – maybe there's an empty place that this could…
CM-U: Well…

David McManaway: Well, that's up to you.
CM-U: …unless we – no, it's up to you, really. Because I think we ought to keep it, but I think you should place it. We do have something – we do have a few other empty…
David McManaway: I forget that I've got this thing on. I'll probably walk off with it.
CM-U: See, there was something here, too.
David McManaway: Um-hum. You know, I wonder. Damn those balloons. This was another balloon.
CM-U: Yellow balloon [sounds like], yeah.
David McManaway: Well, that's the end of my balloon career. (laughter)
David McManaway: No more balloons. I ruled out rubber bands, too, a long time ago.
CM-U: They don't – yeah, they don't last, I can assure you. Rubber masks aren't real good, either.

David McManaway: And I'll be damned. I guess I had this thing pretty well finished 'cause I don't find a place to put this. In terms of keeping, say, with – this is more conceptual than anything else, and maybe it could just be tacked onto the back…
CM-U: Okay.
David McManaway: …and sprayed or something, you know.
CM-U: Well, we could do…
David McManaway: Could you do that? Just tack it on a nice place on the back like a legend? I like that idea, too.
CM-U: Okay.
David McManaway: Yeah.
CM-U: Okay.
David McManaway: And you can retouch the dog if you want to. But he has to have hard edges like he's got.
CM-U: Whose dog was this?
David McManaway: This is a newspaper. Yeah.
CM-U: __________ [word inaudible] out of the newspaper.
David McManaway: I think it probably was a AKC show or something.
CM-U: Okay.
David McManaway: I liked the newspaper, what happens to even good photographs when they get printed in the newspaper…
CM-U: Uh-huh.
David McManaway: …some of them, I've got a whole collection of them that just enhanced themselves into a really nice thing. And I've never found a way to do anything with them except short term…
CM-U: Uh-huh.
David McManaway: …'cause they won't stay, you know. They fade.

CM-U: What about – are there other areas that either seem different or, in terms of their aging, you feel at this point really need some work?
David McManaway: Well, it certainly could be cleaned and brushed, you know…
CM-U: Uh-huh.
David McManaway: …and all of that. A little judicious…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …air pressure. God, I don't like some of these things that I did on here. This little pig in there… [referring to an object inside a red velvet box]
CM-U: You know, it's interesting. In that photograph, this box was closed. I don't know why.
David McManaway: Well, that – those – I have done that, too. I've put them on, and the viewer is welcome to open them and look inside. But of course on something that gets old and fragile, it – but I'd say, for showing…
CM-U: Just keep it. [speaking to someone off-camera]
David McManaway: …it probably would be better to keep it open…
CM-U: Yeah.
David McManaway: …and – uh, this little bird, with his little __________ [word inaudible] tails. Well, I'd say, all in all, it's okay. I honestly think the last two, and this one I'm working on now, are better pieces, generally. But this is kind of a – you know, a prototype. No, no, not a prototype. What – how does that fit in to make it so that it's not a complete throwaway? Because some of the first few things I did, I realized that I had to make everything.
CM-U: Right.
David McManaway: And, boy, I've come across some real, really bad stuff. But this one's all right. This – you can see – I think probably the idea of – well, see, again, the distance…
CM-U: The distance makes it…
David McManaway: Yeah.
CM-U: …and it seems to my eye, or to our way of looking at things, as just having aged well. I mean, it – other than a few missing parts.

David McManaway: Now this little lady, see, [referring to the face of a woman holding an object between her thumb and forefinger] there is no reason to put someone on there like that as part of collage.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: If I were gonna do a collage, I'd use something more arty, probably.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: But she's got the Jomo thing.
CM-U: She has the little Jomo.
David McManaway: This is a stupid-looking woman with this little (holds thumb and forefinger together) – and that was the idea, you know. That, in the earlier days, anything that indicated that, or this, (cups hands together) or the finger pointing (points right forefinger at top of left hand). You know, usually the finger would be pointing at a kidney stone or something like that; and we did a lot of Jomo paste up that was intended as humor. My – Harold made a medal and sent it to me. You know, a medal of valor?
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: I was going through one of these old catalogues, and I flipped a page, and here was a gold-framed print of Whistler's Mother. And I kept flipping through. You know, searching these little things for good clip-outs. And five or six or eight pages later, here was that one very corny pop-like painting – popular art – of Jesus sitting in the Garden.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: And I looked at that, and I thought, "That guy ripped off Whistler." Which he did. Once you see it. Well, anyway, ripped that out. Went back to this page. Anyway, very carefully cut out the figure of Jesus and slipped him into the place of Whistler's mother. Very carefully done. 

David McManaway: It just worked perfectly. And I sent it right off to Harold, and he sent me back a medal, you know, a Jomo medal. (laughter)
CM-U: This wasn't in the original photo, was it?
David McManaway: No.
CM-U: But it's nailed on. It's like its intention – there's some sort of intention there. Intentional.
David McManaway: Actually, this wasn't, either. So whatever was in there got out of there. I've had – occasionally I've had things eaten off of these boards and just disappeared, you know…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …in that manner.
CM-U: So this is one area [referring to bottom left-hand corner] you might think about reworking some things. Is that what you were saying? Put something in there?
David McManaway: Sure.
CM-U: Yeah.
David McManaway: Yeah.
CM-U: That would be great.
David McManaway: I'll make a note of that, and at least one thing – or a criss-cross, or something of things that should try to keep it in keeping with this, you know.
CM-U: And then do you think – did you finally decide we should replace balloons, or not?
David McManaway: Well, they're balloons, aren't they? I suppose I could…
CM-U: Yeah.
David McManaway: …get a package of…
CM-U: They don't last, but we can put one in, and then just keep…
David McManaway: Sure.
CM-U: Well, and this seems to be what the technology is anyway with __________ [phrase inaudible].
David McManaway: Well, I'll tell you what. I'm serious about this, too. I really do mean this.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: You guys are plenty good, and obviously love art.
CM-U: Uh-huh.
David McManaway: So be my guest.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: And I – it's kind of a Jomo thing…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …but be careful. You gotta get exactly the right balloons.
CM-U: Well, I'd just as soon you found some balloons, and when you bring back a piece for that, next time you come, maybe you could – we could put the balloon on…
David McManaway: Well, you can't tell. You might go out this afternoon and find a perfect balloon.
CM-U: I might just find the perfect balloon.
David McManaway: Yeah. Balloon.

CM-U: What about the glass painting? I mean, I assume it was pretty much in that state when you…
David McManaway: Yeah.
CM-U: …when you bought it and put it on?
David McManaway: Just went straight up over that. Probably at Goodwill.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: And, as always, what I think this started – and then onto the third and fourth, more pronounced than now, there's no mistaking it – that you start with the center piece, or a vertical that runs up the center…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …and when I finally got over trying to place objects or images in just the right place on the canvas – thank God that passed! – I just thought, "Just put them in the middle, and they'll be fine." You know, if you get the picture made…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: And so that may have been the first thing to go on. And the original Jomo board had a picture that was something along this line.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: It was a large group of figures, faded and worked over like this, and had a lovely look to it. And that went right across the top…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …and started the whole thing. And everything after that came down.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: But I still do that. I've got this tendency to do vertical and horizontal.
CM-U: Um-hum. This goes back to your interest in the cross.
David McManaway: I've always wanted – wished Mondrian were alive 'cause I always wanted to send him a crate of oranges, you know. I figured it would drive him crazy, you know, having all those circles around. (laughter)
David McManaway: That's a Jomo thing, see.
CM-U: And these are Jomo bags? Good-luck bags, hanging? What are those little hanging…
David McManaway: Oh, of course. Yeah.
CM-U: Yeah?
David McManaway: That would have to be. And the yellow wheels, I'd love it if they'd go away; but they're not going to.
CM-U: No. They are part of it.

CM-U: One final question about the Jomo Board #2 is, what about installation? Have we done it – I mean, is this the way you see it, as the wheels on the floor, and it mounted on the wall?
David McManaway: Pretty much.
CM-U: As opposed to on a platform or something?
David McManaway: One idea I had was like a railroad tie, or that kind of wood that has, well would you say, about a 12x12 beam…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …that would come out maybe at some proportion on either side of the wheel, and wide enough for the wheels to be up about that ten or twelve inches off the ground [sounds like].
CM-U: So the wheels would be on top of the railroad tie.
David McManaway: Just a solid chunk of wood, and one that's like an old beam out of an old building.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: So that it has some weather on it. That's what – I have visualized it that way. And I don't know that it ever got done that way. But somehow it seems okay, and it seems that the wheels – in one sense, I've never lost the image of a painting…

CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …so that the wheels, even though they are three dimensional, and they conflict with the floor…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …so that theoretically that thing could go up even as high as you would like it to. So that you get this rectangle with the little – what do they call that?
CM-U: The pediment on top?
David McManaway: Yeah. It's French…
Jim Love: Same thing on the __________ [word inaudible] in New York with Bill Johnson [sounds like].
David McManaway: Yeah. Copycat! But so that all forms a shape with the wheels at the bottom.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: I mean, that…
Jim Love: The __________ [word inaudible], it almost has to be attached to the walls because it won't…
David McManaway: Oh, yeah. Definitely on the wall.
CM-U: Yeah.
David McManaway: And, you know, when we've installed that, [art preparator] Urban Neininger made the defining comment about – Urban was MacAgy's assistant and just kind of a genius at stuff, installing and what have you. And when we brought this in, I said, "Those wheels are supposed to work." So instead of putting it on a dolly, we just rolled it in, and Urban made an appropriate comment about art that moved itself, you know. Rolling art. (laughter)

David McManaway: Well, I'll tell you what. This is going too long, so you all can quit. And if something comes up, I'll be glad to talk on the phone or whatever…
CM-U: Well, I think what I'll do is send you details of areas. Another one, an area that we didn't talk about was, we really think maybe something was stuck on here at one point. There seems to be a little bit of glue left. So maybe what we'll do is send you front details of it…
David McManaway: Hmm.
CM-U: …just to see. And the next time you're here…
David McManaway: Yeah, you're right. But I don't mind that.
CM-U: Yeah. Well, it wasn't clear in the photo. It may have been like that. You may have found it like that and never – maybe something had already fallen off of it. Because it wasn't clear in the photo that there was something on it, actually. But I'll just send you details of it, and then maybe next time when you come, if you think about something else…
David McManaway: Okay. Whatever.
CM-U: Well, thank you. This was great.
David McManaway: You bet. You're welcome.
CM-U: It was really good. We're thrilled to have the piece, and it's a new accession.
David McManaway: Well, I am glad. I really am. I mean, this is – for me, this is absolutely one of the best collections in the country, you know. I've always thought that. [Break in video]

CM-U: [Voiceover narration] David McManaway returned to the Conservation Studio later in the year on October 27th with an assortment of Jomos that he thought could be used to fill the blank areas left by loss on the board. The first area of loss that he addressed was in the upper left hand quadrant where a blue balloon once hung. [Footage of McManaway reworking Jomo Board #2 in the Menil Conservation Studio, with very little audio audible for transcription]
David McManaway: …__________ [sentences inaudible]. __________ [phrase inaudible] something else that might appear to be attached to that blue thing, you know.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: __________ [phrase inaudible]. Nah.
CM-U: In your studio, do you have tables and tables full of items?
David McManaway: Hey, that's not bad, huh? Y'all haven't got a band saw around here?
Man: Downstairs.

CM-U: [Voiceover narration] He decided to fill that area with a corn on the cob of an appropriate size that he brought with him from Dallas. He cut off the top of the husk, added a string, and applied the corn to the board with glue and nails. Jim Love assisted him in this treatment. [Footage of McManaway and Love reworking Jomo Board #2 in the Menil Conservation Studio, with very little audio audible for transcription]
David McManaway: __________ [phrase inaudible] hanging down there. Ah, hm. Nah, that ain't gonna work. Well, this is – just go for broke. You say you had a variable speed?
David McManaway: Damn! Jim? Will you just grab hold there? No, I'm not gonna nail. Just hold onto that for me. [speaking to himself] Get out of there! Come on. [both voices (McManaway and Love) speaking at the same time; cannot distinguish]
David McManaway: Okay, that will hold it. You might want your finger on this notch. All right. [Both voices speaking at the same time—only partially transcribed]
David McManaway: Don't do that at home [sounds like]. (laughs) You can let go.
Jim Love: You think?
David McManaway: Yeah. Definitely.
Jim Love: __________ [phrase inaudible].
David McManaway: Well, it's tied.
David McManaway: Now. Strategic.
Jim Love: You have to get a variable speed, David. __________ [phrase inaudible].
David McManaway: I do have one, but it's too big. If I could get a little tiny one…
David McManaway: Okay, sir.
David McManaway: I'll just let that glue set. It will hold as well as anything else that's on the board. On the other hand… That damn Jesus. I put him there, and he really doesn't need to be there.
David McManaway: Okay. I need your finger again. Not too hard. All right. That will do. Thank you, sir. Break time. [Break in video]

CM-U: [Voiceover narration] After securing the corn, he turned his attention to other areas. He would choose a Jomo and then try to find an appropriate place for it on the board. [Footage of McManaway working on Jomo Board #2]
David McManaway: Well. Look at that. Now see, nowadays – you see this little female figure with the frog coming out?
CM-U: It's so good.
David McManaway: I would like – I almost would be – I'd do that on its own.
CM-U: On its own?
David McManaway: Yeah, because the boards – that's what they started off being when I put these things together or find the Jomos, I was just going to put them on a board. Which I did on the first one, and that became a piece, and so I did a second one. The first one got destroyed. But I always had the option when I started making things – particularly when I went whole-hog in that direction – if the board were over there – I could – if the thing I made wasn't good enough to stand on its own, it could go on the board. Frugal. (laughs)
CM-U: Well, you know the other thing is, remember that little box that you found last time?
David McManaway: Oh, that was an addition, uh-huh.
CM-U: It has a __________ [phrase inaudible] – if you open it up.
David McManaway: __________ [phrase inaudible]
CM-U: I think it had something in it.
David McManaway: __________ [phrase inaudible] I think that's probably why I liked it.
CM-U: Yeah, so if you want to keep it up there, you should stick it on. Or take it off and take it with you. Or I can put it among those that were added by the children.
David McManaway: Well, we could just – it wouldn't have to stay there, though. I'm sure the __________ [phrase inaudible] if there was somewhere for it to rest. 

David McManaway: God! There's a turtle – a broad turtle __________ [word inaudible] on there. See? You know…
CM-U: Do you want me to hold it so you can step back?
David McManaway: Well, I think it's a little too much for that space, but it's not too bad. Yeah, would you? Yeah, probably too much. __________ [phrase inaudible] Well, maybe this little jewel, huh? I'll put it up. See, that looks like it's __________ [word inaudible]. How about that? It looks like it's coming right out of the paper, see.
David McManaway: Hmm, well it kind of works. I think the idea was something that would be dangling out here, see? Except obviously nothing dangled out of there. Oh I see, it was – I took the part you blow through on the balloon and put it around that. Dumb idea. Hm, that was easy. (laughs) Well, that's not so bad. __________ [phrase inaudible] Sort of melds in. That's what I decided. I'd better not try to do something that __________ [phrase inaudible]. Right here? Yeah, I like that. Oop, see how that gulls? [sounds like] How is that, anyway? Plastic.
David McManaway: It's pretty good, isn't it?
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: I'm just – I'm gonna reserve my opinion on that.
CM-U: Okay, well you can just – you can just put it in, so you can see...
David McManaway: __________ [phrase inaudible] a fun little guy. He's pretty good, isn't he?
CM-U: Um-hum.

CM-U: [Voiceover narration] Eventually, he focused on an area of loss in the bottom right quadrant of the board. [Footage of McManaway working on Jomo Board #2]
CM-U: [Voiceover narration] The metal ring with a circular clay form that may be seen behind him in the bottom left corner of the board had erroneously been filled with a pink balloon when the piece entered The Menil Collection. McManaway painted the wood black within the ring before adding the circular clay snake. Later, he glued a velvet and beaded decoration within the exposed circular space created by the snake.

CM-U: [Voiceover narration] After carefully selecting a metal toy policeman from among his Jomos, he proceeded to add the figure to a circular black and yellow metal tray in the bottom right quadrant of the board. [Footage of McManaway working on Jomo Board #2]
David McManaway: Oops.
Jim Love: Do you want me to hold it? [sounds like]
David McManaway: No, I think I'm all right. I just want to get him about in the right place so that I get the hole drilled in the right place.
Jim Love: __________ [word inaudible].
David McManaway: Well, this is the best epoxy, unless there's some space-age kind that you can buy. And these two deals like this [holds up two plastic bottles], it keeps them separate. You know, the little tubes that lie in a basket [sounds like] together?
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: Just a mess! And these, it even has the measuring, if you need to do that that way.
CM-U: Is that the Devcon five-ton, five-year?
David McManaway: It's two-ton.
CM-U: Two-ton.
David McManaway: Sets in thirty minutes, not the five-minute.
CM-U: (laughs) Five-year? What am I thinking?
David McManaway: __________ [phrase inaudible]. (laughter)
David McManaway: I'm thinking [sounds like] maybe I'd better drill first. [Voices inaudible]
David McManaway: What?
David McManaway: Oops.

Jim Love: Do you want me to hold it? [sounds like]
David McManaway: No, I think I'm all right. I just want to get him about in the right place so that I get the hole drilled in the right place.
David McManaway: Uh oh. Well, that's fun. Well, I wonder what that stuff is. I don't think that's going to go through. Nah, I'll just do the epoxy __________ [word inaudible]. With this stuff, it will hold.
Jim Love: __________ [phrase inaudible].
David McManaway: I don't know. I thought it was plastic. Good stuff, huh? Cut and run. What was that one, Jim?
Jim Love: Bait and switch.
David McManaway: Bait and switch, yeah.
Jim Love: Illegal.
David McManaway: What?
Jim Love: It's illegal.
David McManaway: I know it. But you make your own bed and you have to lie in it. And that's what I did.

CM-U: [Voiceover narration] In order to secure the figure properly, he decided to insert a small piece of yellow foam between the toy policeman and the circular metal tray attached to the board. He adhered the foam and the toy with five-ton epoxy. [Footage of McManaway working on Jomo Board #2]
David McManaway: Have to hold him on there for a while. Yeah, I like that little guy on there a lot. I've been trying for years to use him.
CM-U: (laughs) __________ [phrase inaudible].

David McManaway: You know what, I almost always – almost always – stick what I call a "portrait" of people, and Jim's almost always one of them.
CM-U: Oh yeah?
David McManaway: And I don't think that I have an obvious one on here.
CM-U: Well, there's that one little girl.
David McManaway: Huh?
CM-U: __________ [phrase inaudible]. That, you mean that type of thing?
David McManaway: No.
CM-U: Oh, what do you mean?
David McManaway: Uh, just a certain combination of objects....
CM-U: Oh!
David McManaway: …that signify
CM-U: That recall a person?
David McManaway: Yeah, and I always have something on Jim, see?
CM-U: Oh, __________ [phrase inaudible], yeah.
David McManaway: This is it. (laughter)
CM-U: Jim, you've been added to the piece.
David McManaway: You just got up here, Jim. [Voices inaudible]

CM-U: [Voiceover narration] Choosing from among his Jomos, he tried alternative additions but finally decided to leave the board as it was.
CM-U: That looks good.
David McManaway: It's a little – I like that there, a lot.
CM-U: I do too.
David McManaway: Just even technically speaking, the whole thing starts – besides the content – becomes surface too. It's like, say, a painting, where there's a place rubbed out.
CM-U: Um-hum. Absolutely.
David McManaway: That's what I've thought too, with at least this current one that I'm doing, um, it would be really nice to have light from a pretty sharp angle above and just washed over [sounds like] – washing over the surface, so you kind of tend to lose places like this, just a little.
CM-U: Oh yeah, that could be done.
David McManaway: Gotta have some fun. (laughter)

David McManaway: Well, that grabbed ahold okay. Everything's fine. I think I can glue that on now.
CM-U: I think so.
David McManaway: Whoops. That's good – I put my chisel down in the epoxy. [Video with inaudible background discussion and remarks]
David McManaway: God, that's still wet. Why the hell would that be wet? I wonder if I put two As together. Well, what the hell did I glue with that? Oh, maybe that's what it was.
CM-U: It could be, because it should have set up.
David McManaway: I put the two reds or the two blues together.
CM-U: Or uneven amounts.
David McManaway: Houston just throws me every time. I just come down here, and __________ [phrase inaudible].
CM-U: (laughs)
Jim Love: I saw you __________ [phrase inaudible], you had both bottles in your hand.
David McManaway: Yeah. That's what happened. Well, this ought to really go on, now. God, look at that glass – I hate to ruin that.
CM-U: You won't ruin it. We'll scrape it off and use the other [sounds like]. Maybe. Oh! Margaret thinks that I'm going to make her do it.

David McManaway: Okay folks, that's the blue. And that's the red. __________ [phrase inaudible]
CM-U: Is it absorbed into the sponge __________ [phrase inaudible]?
David McManaway: It has, yeah. So that should really do. I feel like Jeff Smith, the frugal gourmet. (laughter)
David McManaway: I always add a little garlic. How can you eat this without garlic?
David McManaway: Oh boy, he's great. (examines work at length) Now, some more. Stubborn thing [sounds like]. Okay, I think that will work all right. 

David McManaway: What else was missing? Any other places where you detected – I've gotten so…
David McManaway: Oh, there was a – well, no – let's see. Another balloon somewhere? Well, this. We still don't know about that.
CM-U: And there is a hook here, but I don't know if anything is on it. There's a hook there.
David McManaway: Right, okay. I probably had something. I'll bet you a dollar that was another balloon.
CM-U: Probably. No, it probably was. Because there seems to be some kind of glue – plastic – I don't know, rubber?
David McManaway: Nothing harder than a thumbtack. In that Jomo film, when Roy [Fridge] pans on this board…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …I think he centers down onto this thing, and right at the tail end, that thing is doing that, like that. And then the scene fades.
CM-U: I'd love to see that.
David McManaway: What was there? __________ [phrase inaudible]
CM-U: The odd thing is, in the photo, I really can't see __________ [phrase inaudible].
David McManaway: I think…
CM-U: __________ [phrase inaudible].
David McManaway: …I don't really know if anything needs to be there. [Voices inaudible]
David McManaway: That's plastic. See that frog coming down out of there? I could cut that down. (cuts frog toy) [Voices inaudible]
CM-U: Would you like a scalpel? [Voices inaudible]
David McManaway: Now, see, he might be okay there. What do you think, guys? This whole thing is kind of frog-like anyway, see?

CM-U: Ultimately, he chose not to use the frog. In sum, then, the actual additions he made were a circular snake with beaded fabric insert in the bottom left quadrant, a corn on the cob in the upper left quadrant, and a metal toy policeman in the bottom right quadrant. [Break in video]

[Transcriptionist's Note: A new interview begins with David McManaway concerning his work Love Fetish, 1971]
David McManaway: I was probably, with this…
CM-U: Let's move it over __________ [phrase inaudible] the white wall.
David McManaway: I began to – this – with Mr. Love over there, he – I mean, I could see imagery in things, you know. It's no problem seeing a face in there. But that might have had a little bit to do with Jim, but this thing, finding this, and being able to do that with it, and putting that together, it was not so much to make a figure as it was – uh, in the early days of doing this stuff, I found myself drifting very easily and quickly into some kind of primitive or African-looking business. And I don't know how many pieces, as I got a little more experienced in my own view, that I would stop making because they were – it's too easy.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: And I don't think all that stuff is all that great anyway.
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: But this little guy, when somebody said, told me that whoever the owner had been had donated it to this Collection, I thought, "That's a rather nice thing."
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: As this is. But I didn't remember it. And whoever it was was simply trying to describe it verbally, and they didn't get the job done. But then when I saw a picture later, almost by accident – 'cause that came and went, and I forgot about it, but then I remembered.
CM-U: I think it entered the collection in the early eighties. I think it was '82. And I don't know…
David McManaway: I've forgotten who…
CM-U: Don't know?
David McManaway: It probably was bought out of a – I've had one or two shows here. [Houston Gallerist] Louise Ferrari…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …maybe one of her people. 

David McManaway: Or possibly a show at the Contemporary [Arts Museum Houston].
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: But I can't be sure. My records are deplorable. I can't – even if I try to keep them, I lose them, so…
CM-U: Would this have been a metallic form that you would have smashed? Or do you think you just probably found it that way?
David McManaway: Oh, no I found it.
CM-U: You found it that way.
David McManaway: And I found it because it looked that way. I mean, I got it. And it's a – I even later discovered that it's probably mine. Well, that's a thermostat that comes out of a car.
CM-U: Oh.
David McManaway: I always had cars that boiled over…
CM-U: Uh-huh.
David McManaway: …and didn't work properly. And so that may have come back to me, you see.
CM-U: We wondered what this was.
David McManaway: I think that's what it – don't you think so?
Jim Love: __________ [phrase inaudible]
David McManaway: They used to…
CM-U: Why don't you come over and take a look at this, Jim?
David McManaway: They would stick these things down in the old radiator, you know, right under the cap. Or, I think.
Jim Love: Yeah, that's __________ [word inaudible] that you find stuff in the street. That's probably a street item.
David McManaway: Oh, well, it was. This may have come out of…
Jim Love: __________ [phrase inaudible]
David McManaway: …even come out of Gachman's [Gachman Metals and Recycling Company, Fort Worth, TX] or one of those places, see? Yeah, mashed and…
Jim Love: When Charlie [Charles T. Williams] used to go to Gachman's, you would go with him occasionally.

David McManaway: Oh, yeah.
Jim Love: Which is a junkyard. Where you get…
CM-U: Uh-huh.
David McManaway: These guys would go pick up metal, and I'd go along where the dirt roads…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …and pick up old milk cartons and stuff. And we'd get into the office where you have to pay. And Charlie would go through his thing 'cause he usually had great big stuff. And Jim would have a pile. Each – this was so much. This was so much. And I'd say, "How much for that?" And the guy would say, "You can just have that."
CM-U: Just take it away. (laughter)
David McManaway: But I would find these other things. And that would be a little bit of…
CM-U: Um-hum.
David McManaway: …because of Jim and Charlie.
Jim Love: There was a time when you came to see me once on Truxillo, and I remember that you found three things on the path that I used everyday, going from my car to my building. Sometimes going out to the car. That I walked over. (laughter)
David McManaway: You don't see any on that board, do you by any chance?

Woman: Well, you know what Roy [Fridge] always said? Roy said there was this little genie – or some little creature – that walked along only in front of David and dropped these things… [Several people talking at once—impossible to distinguish among them]
David McManaway: But you know what's very curious? Harold Hill gets a great deal of credit, and even – I remember one time, Jim met Harold. Remember that? At the "One i" installation? And Harold had stopped by. And Harold had this eye –and we had like an identical eye. We'd always find the same things, I swear sometimes even later on phone calls, I'd say, "Harold, I found something for you," and he would say, "Well, I got something for you." I mean, Harold would say that even if he was lying, but…
CM-U: (laughs)
David McManaway: …and he had – this happened a couple of times as well – I said, "Well mine's in a jar." He said, "So is mine. And it's got a yellow and green label on it, about three inches high." "Like Vaseline?" "Yes." "Mine has that, too." And I said, "It wouldn't be Hills" – because of the name – "Egyptian pressing oil, by any chance, would it"? "That's what it is."
CM-U: He wasn't making collective objects, was he? He was painting?
David McManaway: He was doing things a little bit differently. They were, I mean, you know – He had his own style, and I have some things on some of the boards that he would send me, and maybe there's one on here, even. But, at this point, probably not.